Any Question Concerning Ruling with Fly Ball/Tags

[CoEd All-Star]

Scenario: Sanctioned GSL(basically USSSA rules, minus pitching). Bottom of 6th inning. 1 out. Bases loaded. Home team is down 4 runs. 1 home run available.

Play: Batter hits a line drive into right center field. Right fielder runs it down and dives towards into the right center gap, either catch the ball or trapping it on the ground. Very close play and nobody on either team knew if he had caught the ball or not (RF later confirms that he trapped it).

All 3 runners are stranded in between the bases, not knowing if they should tag up or not. Field umpire never makes a call. Runner 1 is standing right next to the umpire asking for a call...still nothing. Field umpire looks back towards home plate umpire, who also never signals. All three runners advance, since no call is typically an indication of no out. Right fielder gets up and immediately throws to 3rd base. Runner 2 beats the throw to 3rd. Home plate umpire signals safe at 3rd. All runners reach the next base. Time is called. At this point, there still has not been a safe/out call on the batted ball.

Ruling: Umpires call time and meet in the center of the field for a few moments. They eventually break their huddle, signal for an out on the catch in right field, then signal for another out at 2nd base for no tag up (ball was never even thrown to second base). 3 outs, Ballgame.

Home team protests play. Director is called to the field. Home team has the following points made:

1. Field umpire never made a call. Field umpire (who was standing behind 2nd base) tells the director that he is unsure if the ball was caught or not, so he admits to never making a call.
2. Home plate umpire made the call of out on the batted ball AFTER time has been called to end the play. How can that call be made, and not give any runners an indication of what to do during the play? How can advancing runners be called out during a dead ball when there was no live ball ruling?
3. If the ball actually was caught, why did the right fielder try to throw to 3rd base?
4. If the home plate umpire signaled that Runner 2 was safe at 3rd, wouldn't that be an indication that the batted ball was not a catch?
5. If the home plate umpire makes the decision in the huddle that a catch was made, the field umpire admittedly was watching the play and made no call, how can they make a call on the tag? If the home plate umpire called the out in right center field, he could not watch for a tag at the same time.
6. There was never an appeal play made, nor was a live ball ever thrown to 2nd base for the no tag up out. So how do they break the huddle and say that the runner on 2nd is out for no tag up?

Director basically said that there's nothing he can do. He's sorry, and that "bad calls happen." His exact words. The problem there being that there wasn't a bad call on the play. There was no call on the play.


WHAT SHOULD THE RULING BE?

 

[CoEd All-Star]

It's a bit harder to swallow the ruling on a Sunday afternoon elimination game in a sanctioned tournament between two very good teams in a close game with a $450 entry fee and 15 NIW bats and full sub jerseys to the tournament winner. That's a big situation to have a call like this go down to end a game.

 

[ureout]

poor umpire mechanics.. this should be the HP umpires call unless discussed pre-game that the BU will go out on fly ball catches .. the HP umpire should either signal with a raised fist for an out or point to the ground for a no catch.. a verbal call is also allowed of I have a catch or no catch to aid the runners.. if no call is made then it should be assumed it was a base hit.. If after the umpires got together and made a poor decision that it was a catch then they should have returned the runners and not penalize them for not tagging

 

[SevenBizzos]

That's a bit weird. It's really hard to call something you didn't see. As a home plate ump in a huddle, I'm sticking with my no call, because I didn't see a catch or signal it. I'd really struggle with ending a game like that.
With a catch called, runner 2 was eligible to be tagged for leaving too early.
It's a pretty brutal set of events here.

 

[ichiromoco]

The mechanics are where the issue is. No catch called on the field or signaled at the time of the play means NO CATCH. PERIOD. Protest at that point for coming back and ruling a catch and double play. Not sure why your base runner at 2B was not tagging up though...Runner at 1B I would understand..

 

[Joker]

bad umpiring and bad director for not knowing the rules

 

[EAJuggalo]

poor umpire mechanics.. this should be the HP umpires call unless discussed pre-game that the BU will go out on fly ball catches .. the HP umpire should either signal with a raised fist for an out or point to the ground for a no catch.. a verbal call is also allowed of I have a catch or no catch to aid the runners.. if no call is made then it should be assumed it was a base hit.. If after the umpires got together and made a poor decision that it was a catch then they should have returned the runners and not penalize them for not tagging

Agreed that it was poor umpire mechanics. But there are a couple things wrong with this answer. Catch/ No Catch is generally the plate umpires call unless the field umpire has his back turned to the infield and is going out on it.

We are instructed to go out if we are in the B position (anytime runners are on base) if we think it's going to be close. The plate umpire should verbalize the out and raise the right arm if it's a catch, or if the base umpire raises his arm signalling it's a valid catch. If the base umpire makes no signal and the plate umpire has no catch he should make a safe signal while staying silent.

It is the plate umpires responsibility to watch all tag ups, unless this has been discussed among the crew beforehand. Personally in this situation as the base umpire I would have been going out for a better view on the catch and the entire infield would have been the plate umpire's.

Getting together was the right thing to do, but if neither of them clearly saw a catch they shouldn't have overturned it. Even if they do overturn it you can't give the defense a second out because the umpires didn't make a call in a timely manner. If I would have overturned this and ruled a catch I would have put the runners back where they started.

The TD had no business being involved. It should have been the tournament UIC that made the ruling. A sanctioned tournament should have a UIC that is not umpiring a game and is not the TD.

It seems the umpires gave an "accidental" appeal at third. For a legal appeal in this situation the 3B would have had to state which runner he is appealing. If he states the runner from 2B than you would have the third out, but a run would score. If he stated the runner who started at 3B a run would not have scored.

 

[ureout]

Agreed that it was poor umpire mechanics. But there are a couple things wrong with this answer. Catch/ No Catch is generally the plate umpires call unless the field umpire has his back turned to the infield and is going out on it.

We are instructed to go out if we are in the B position (anytime runners are on base) if we think it's going to be close. The plate umpire should verbalize the out and raise the right arm if it's a catch, or if the base umpire raises his arm signalling it's a valid catch. If the base umpire makes no signal and the plate umpire has no catch he should make a safe signal while staying silent.

It is the plate umpires responsibility to watch all tag ups, unless this has been discussed among the crew beforehand. Personally in this situation as the base umpire I would have been going out for a better view on the catch and the entire infield would have been the plate umpire's.


EA.. what are the couple things wrong with my answer?.. you practically wrote the same thing.. also how is it possible for the HP umpire to watch all tag ups.. impossible.. with bases loaded the HP umpire should focus on closest runner to plate for tag up since he is the closest to scoring.. there is no way in a 2 man system for the HP umpire to see all tag ups at 1st touch of the fielder.. after seeing the tag up at 3rd the rest would just be guessing

 

[BigWhiffa]

i would stop payment on that check.

 

[EAJuggalo]

At no time should the plate umpire point to the ground to indicate no catch. The PU should only point at the ground to indicate a fair ball. The only approved mechanic for signalling no catch is making a safe signal. The plate umpire should never say "No Catch." PU should only verbalize "Out." It does not need to be discussed pre-game that the BU is going to go out on all catches. It is the PU responsibility to know if their partner has their back to the infield and is going out to make the catch/no catch call.

If the ball is hit to RC and you're moving up the line to get an angle on the tag up at 3, doesn't that put you in a very good position to watch the tag up at 2 as well? Once you confirm the catch, while having the two lead runners in your peripheral you should be able to glance and see where R3 is.

 

[ureout]

At no time should the plate umpire point to the ground to indicate no catch. The PU should only point at the ground to indicate a fair ball. The only approved mechanic for signalling no catch is making a safe signal. The plate umpire should never say "No Catch." PU should only verbalize "Out." It does not need to be discussed pre-game that the BU is going to go out on all catches. It is the PU responsibility to know if their partner has their back to the infield and is going out to make the catch/no catch call.

If the ball is hit to RC and you're moving up the line to get an angle on the tag up at 3, doesn't that put you in a very good position to watch the tag up at 2 as well? Once you confirm the catch, while having the two lead runners in your peripheral you should be able to glance and see where R3 is.

wow... aren't we getting picky.. I've worked many U-trip games at Disney FL .. you need to come here and teach a clinic.. in fact I worked NSA and ISA again all do it.. there is absolutely no reason for the BU to go out on fly ball catches in a 2 man system, and I don't think I have ever worked with a partner that on a fly ball with runners on base he turned and ran to the outfield to make the catch call.. his job is to rotate into the infield to help with trail runner tag ups and possible slide and tag plays at 2nd from advancing runner, especially if you have a runner tagging on 3rd HP has to stay home.. I would agree with umpire going out in a 3 or 4 man rotation but not in a 2 man.. also what do you do if the ball isn't conveniently hit to RF.. what about LF and based loaded.. how do you get a look at 1st and 2nd .. and BTW while you are running out to watch the catch HP ump still has to watch for 1st touch/catch on tags.. I really can't believe that you actually work that routine.. think about it bases loaded fly ball and you go out... now you expect HP to watch 1st touch/catch of the fielder and then see all 3 bases for possible tag ups.. oh and since you went out now HP ump has all the possible tag plays at 2nd 3rd and home...

 

[irishmafia]

At no time should the plate umpire point to the ground to indicate no catch. The PU should only point at the ground to indicate a fair ball. The only approved mechanic for signalling no catch is making a safe signal. The plate umpire should never say "No Catch." PU should only verbalize "Out." It does not need to be discussed pre-game that the BU is going to go out on all catches. It is the PU responsibility to know if their partner has their back to the infield and is going out to make the catch/no catch call.

If the ball is hit to RC and you're moving up the line to get an angle on the tag up at 3, doesn't that put you in a very good position to watch the tag up at 2 as well? Once you confirm the catch, while having the two lead runners in your peripheral you should be able to glance and see where R3 is.

Speaking USA, NFHS, WBSC and probably NCAA, there is no mechanic of which I am aware that directs the umpire to point at the ground for anything

 

[ureout]

Speaking USA, NFHS, WBSC and probably NCAA, there is no mechanic of which I am aware that directs the umpire to point at the ground for anything

ok.. but it's done all the time... again being picky.. anything on the BU in a 2 man going out on fly balls with multiple runners on base?

 

[irishmafia]

ok.. but it's done all the time... again being picky.. anything on the BU in a 2 man going out on fly balls with multiple runners on base?

Not if deemed necessary

 

[AH23]

wow... aren't we getting picky.. I've worked many U-trip games at Disney FL .. you need to come here and teach a clinic.. in fact I worked NSA and ISA again all do it.. there is absolutely no reason for the BU to go out on fly ball catches in a 2 man system, and I don't think I have ever worked with a partner that on a fly ball with runners on base he turned and ran to the outfield to make the catch call.. his job is to rotate into the infield to help with trail runner tag ups and possible slide and tag plays at 2nd from advancing runner, especially if you have a runner tagging on 3rd HP has to stay home.. I would agree with umpire going out in a 3 or 4 man rotation but not in a 2 man.. also what do you do if the ball isn't conveniently hit to RF.. what about LF and based loaded.. how do you get a look at 1st and 2nd .. and BTW while you are running out to watch the catch HP ump still has to watch for 1st touch/catch on tags.. I really can't believe that you actually work that routine.. think about it bases loaded fly ball and you go out... now you expect HP to watch 1st touch/catch of the fielder and then see all 3 bases for possible tag ups.. oh and since you went out now HP ump has all the possible tag plays at 2nd 3rd and home...

I guess it's good that you never have bases loaded while working a game solo.

While it is a RARE occurrence the BU going out in 2 man can and does happen. The fact that there was no "out" or called on this play and then award appeal outs on top is absolutely terrible. If there's no "out" call and/or signal the runners have to assume it isn't caught.

You never verbalize a fair ball or no catch.

 

[RNRPLZ]

Scenario: Sanctioned GSL(basically USSSA rules, minus pitching). Bottom of 6th inning. 1 out. Bases loaded. Home team is down 4 runs. 1 home run available.

Play: Batter hits a line drive into right center field. Right fielder runs it down and dives towards into the right center gap, either catch the ball or trapping it on the ground. Very close play and nobody on either team knew if he had caught the ball or not (RF later confirms that he trapped it).

All 3 runners are stranded in between the bases, not knowing if they should tag up or not. Field umpire never makes a call. Runner 1 is standing right next to the umpire asking for a call...still nothing. Field umpire looks back towards home plate umpire, who also never signals. All three runners advance, since no call is typically an indication of no out. Right fielder gets up and immediately throws to 3rd base. Runner 2 beats the throw to 3rd. Home plate umpire signals safe at 3rd. All runners reach the next base. Time is called. At this point, there still has not been a safe/out call on the batted ball.

Ruling: Umpires call time and meet in the center of the field for a few moments. They eventually break their huddle, signal for an out on the catch in right field, then signal for another out at 2nd base for no tag up (ball was never even thrown to second base). 3 outs, Ballgame.

Home team protests play. Director is called to the field. Home team has the following points made:

1. Field umpire never made a call. Field umpire (who was standing behind 2nd base) tells the director that he is unsure if the ball was caught or not, so he admits to never making a call.
2. Home plate umpire made the call of out on the batted ball AFTER time has been called to end the play. How can that call be made, and not give any runners an indication of what to do during the play? How can advancing runners be called out during a dead ball when there was no live ball ruling?
3. If the ball actually was caught, why did the right fielder try to throw to 3rd base?
4. If the home plate umpire signaled that Runner 2 was safe at 3rd, wouldn't that be an indication that the batted ball was not a catch?
5. If the home plate umpire makes the decision in the huddle that a catch was made, the field umpire admittedly was watching the play and made no call, how can they make a call on the tag? If the home plate umpire called the out in right center field, he could not watch for a tag at the same time.
6. There was never an appeal play made, nor was a live ball ever thrown to 2nd base for the no tag up out. So how do they break the huddle and say that the runner on 2nd is out for no tag up?

Director basically said that there's nothing he can do. He's sorry, and that "bad calls happen." His exact words. The problem there being that there wasn't a bad call on the play. There was no call on the play.


WHAT SHOULD THE RULING BE?

This ruling should have been no matter what sanction it is, no umpire should EVER guess an out. If you didn’t see don’t call it an out.

 

[EAJuggalo]

wow... aren't we getting picky.. I've worked many U-trip games at Disney FL .. you need to come here and teach a clinic.. in fact I worked NSA and ISA again all do it.. there is absolutely no reason for the BU to go out on fly ball catches in a 2 man system, and I don't think I have ever worked with a partner that on a fly ball with runners on base he turned and ran to the outfield to make the catch call.. his job is to rotate into the infield to help with trail runner tag ups and possible slide and tag plays at 2nd from advancing runner, especially if you have a runner tagging on 3rd HP has to stay home.. I would agree with umpire going out in a 3 or 4 man rotation but not in a 2 man.. also what do you do if the ball isn't conveniently hit to RF.. what about LF and based loaded.. how do you get a look at 1st and 2nd .. and BTW while you are running out to watch the catch HP ump still has to watch for 1st touch/catch on tags.. I really can't believe that you actually work that routine.. think about it bases loaded fly ball and you go out... now you expect HP to watch 1st touch/catch of the fielder and then see all 3 bases for possible tag ups.. oh and since you went out now HP ump has all the possible tag plays at 2nd 3rd and home...

Proper mechanics is not being picky. Proper mechanics is called doing the job properly. If you worked Worlds at Disney then I feel sorry for the teams that had to deal with you. And may be the reason why me and my crew got so many compliments last year when we were there. From teams, spectators and directors.

I don't have to come there to teach a clinic, Doc and Jason put on one heck of a national rules clinic that I was fortunate enough to attend and is where all of these answers come from.

I have seen my partner, a multiple time national umpire of the year, turn and go out on a fly ball in the gap at a Major tournament. So if you'd like to show me where it says it shouldn't be done I'll listen. Otherwise, sit down be quiet and stop making even more of an ass out of yourself.

 

[irishmafia]

I don't have to come there to teach a clinic, Doc and Jason put on one heck of a national rules clinic that I was fortunate enough to attend and is where all of these answers come from.

Haven't you ever been told to not end a sentence with a preposition?

 

[jonsey]

[
I have seen my partner, a multiple time national umpire of the year, turn and go out on a fly ball in the gap at a Major tournament. So if you'd like to show me where it says it shouldn't be done I'll listen. Otherwise, sit down be quiet and stop making even more of an ass out of yourself.[/QUOTE


I don't understand why an umpire with bases loaded and a fly ball hit to the gap would go out to watch it??? It's a fly ball that could easily be seen by the plate umpire. I could see a low line drive but not a fly ball. OOOPs forgot this is USSSA they do things different, and if that is what is taught to your umpire of the year I wouldnt want to go to their clinic

 

[EAJuggalo]

If it looks like it's going to be a diving/sliding play why wouldn't you go out as a BU to make a catch/no catch call? I'm not saying you go out on a routine fly ball.

 

[jonsey]

If it looks like it's going to be a diving/sliding play why wouldn't you go out as a BU to make a catch/no catch call? I'm not saying you go out on a routine fly ball.

I have seen my partner, a multiple time national umpire of the year, turn and go out on a fly ball in the gap at a Major Tournament.[/QUOTE]


well, that's what you posted!!
a fly ball in the gap is not a diving/sliding play and not a play that I would want my partner to go out on, especially with bases loaded

 

[EAJuggalo]

Then either you misunderstood, or I was not clear enough in my original post.

 

[irishmafia]

I have seen my partner, a multiple time national umpire of the year, turn and go out on a fly ball in the gap at a Major Tournament.

Now that is funny

 

[jonsey]

Then either you misunderstood, or I was not clear enough in my original post.

REALLY, NO I did not misunderstand and you were very clear you posted it? here it is again your post below is very clear and understandable

I have seen my partner, a multiple time national umpire of the year, turn and go out on a fly ball in the gap at a Major Tournament.[/QUOTE]

it's ok to admit you were wrong

 

[BretMan]

If it's a fly ball in the gap AND a ball that the outfielder might have a shot at getting, meaning it will probably be an on-the-run "trouble catch", then those are exactly the kind of balls where the base umpire should go out.

 

[jonsey]

Bretman why would the BU leave the IF it's a fly ball I dont care if it's in the gap HP should not need any help on a fly ball,
the HP umpire should advance out into the IF and make the call and get in position for tag ups the BU should rotate into the IF an also get ready for tag ups again I can understand a low line drive or maybe if its a morning or evening game and the ball is hit directly into the sun

 

[EAJuggalo]

Thank you Bretman. Jonsey it appears you read something into my post that certainly wasn't intended. It seems you are stuck on the term fly ball as meaning a can of corn that's hit a mile in the air. There can be fly balls that are difficult for fielders to get to, especially when playing a three man outfield. If as a BU you feel it's going to be a close play and may require a dive/slide, reach over the fence whatever why are you not going to go out and make the best call you can on it.
Direct from the USA Umpire Manual: B - Decide whether to go to the outfield to make the call and pick up the ball and glance at the runner as you hustle inside the diamond about halfway between 1B and 2B, to buttonhook at a minimum depth of 10-12 feet. Continue to alternate between the ball and the runner keeping all four elements in front of you. Be prepared to move parallel to the baseline staying ahead of the runner as you are responsible for the tag-up at 1B and 2B, any play at 1B, 2B and last runner into 3B.
Black and white on a fly ball with the bases loaded. BU decides whether to go out and make the call.

 

[irishmafia]

Bretman why would the BU leave the IF it's a fly ball I dont care if it's in the gap HP should not need any help on a fly ball,
the HP umpire should advance out into the IF and make the call and get in position for tag ups the BU should rotate into the IF an also get ready for tag ups again I can understand a low line drive or maybe if its a morning or evening game and the ball is hit directly into the sun

NAFC

 

[jonsey]

EA I understand and totally agree with the ASA manual on positioning. What I'm saying is that in all the years I've been umpiring and the thousands of games I have worked I can't remember more than MAYBE a dozen times that there was ever a problem with the HP umpire determining a catch and those were on low line drives which looked like they could have possibly been caught on a short hop. With that type of hit I understand and agree that the BU should go out. What both you and BretMan posted is that the BU should go out on a fly ball hit into the gap, why, the ball is in the air and the HP umpire has to watch the play anyway for 1st touch and I dont see how this would be a difficult call. You guys have all umpired a ton of games, so let me ask you this where are there more appeals/arguments from the defense during the games, it's definitely not on fly ball catches and it is almost always on tag ups on a caught fly ball. That is why i think the BU should rotate into the IF to help on tag ups of fly balls that are not low line drives that may require the player to dive for it.

 

[EAJuggalo]

And that is the standard mechanic for USA. For USSSA the PU is responsible for all tag ups. The only real responsibility that the BU has in this situation would be the runner tagging from 1B to 2B and a throwback to 3B.
What BretMan and I posted as well as what is in the USA umpire manual and taught by the USSSA Director of Officiating. Is that there is no hard and fast rule, it's up the BU's discretion where the should be. I've had times where I didn't go out and should have, and times I went out when it wasn't necessary. I've also cut off a lot of catch/trap arguments by being out there.