ASA Tag Ups

[cjangeloni1986]

I play in ASA leagues and we only have one umpire per game with the playoff championship game at end of year being the only exception. My question is why do so many of these umpires feel it necessary to act like they have super powers and can possibly see a deep fly ball catch and the tag up at the same time. I've seen people make diving catches and then get the call of an out on appeal saying someone left early. With one umpire 99% of these calls cannot be made accurately but yet in my leagues the appeals seem to be very effective. On top of all that.. why would you call someone out who jogs to the next base on a non play after the catch. Just looking for some input.

 

[vipvanilla]

This is a very difficult call for a single ump to make. Hopefully the ump is running to get in line so watching the ball get caught and seeing the base runner is more feasible. However, this isn't always possible. I tell my guys to not make ANY motion until that ball is clearly touched. Sometimes you'll see guys turn there head or get jumpy. If the ump sees movement out of the corner of his/her eye, they have to make a decision. If I were the ump and saw movement but didn't get a clear look at it, I'd probably call you out too.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Get in your car. Drive for 5 minutes. Then check your speedometer then your rear view mirror to see if anyone is behind you.

How long does that take you?

Should take you no longer than 5 minutes and 0.1 seconds.

 

[cjangeloni1986]

Well I guess what I am saying is from personal experiences with myself and watching teammates is we do not leave until the ball is caught. So obviously it is a missed call. I am referring to an umpire who makes a call he knows he did not see. I much more prefer umpires to say that there is only one of them on the field and he simply did not see it as opposed to bad calls.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Well I guess what I am saying is from personal experiences with myself and watching teammates is we do not leave until the ball is caught. So obviously it is a missed call. I am referring to an umpire who makes a call he knows he did not see. I much more prefer umpires to say that there is only one of them on the field and he simply did not see it as opposed to bad calls.

Do you know how many times I've seen a runner take two (or more!) full steps before the ball was first touched, then make the same claims you just made?

I've even had enough time to see them take off, then look back at the fielder to see the ball still in the air above the glove.

You think you didn't leave early, but you've got a vested interest in the game.

 

[cjangeloni1986]

Well you are right at the fact I am invested into the game and my team but when you watch the catch and then go it is kind of hard to leave early. But I do get what you are saying... especially in more competitive leagues where the 3rd base coach may be saying GO while the runner is getting in position to take off as soon as he hears the word. I also know there are alot of people who " Cheat" and leave the base early on purpose and or also cut bases and those are the type of people you find off the base that far.

 

[spos21ram]

This is a very difficult call for a single ump to make. Hopefully the ump is running to get in line so watching the ball get caught and seeing the base runner is more feasible. However, this isn't always possible. I tell my guys to not make ANY motion until that ball is clearly touched. Sometimes you'll see guys turn there head or get jumpy. If the ump sees movement out of the corner of his/her eye, they have to make a decision. If I were the ump and saw movement but didn't get a clear look at it, I'd probably call you out too.

I disagree. I never call a runner out for leaving early unless I'm 100% sure. I hate when umps don't distinguish the difference between upper body movement and the runners foot coming off the base early.

 

[ImminentDanger]

I hate when umps don't distinguish the difference between upper body movement and the runners foot coming off the base early.

I've gotten a warning or two because of this.... I position myself in foul territory on 1st base with my lead foot on the bag.... then begin my upper body movement (without taking my foot off the bag) when the ball approaches the batter... my foot never leaves the bag until the ball crosses the plate (or is struck earlier by the batter)...

It's like getting a 'Hole Shot' in drag racing....
(http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_drag_racing_whats_a_hole-shot_win)

...

 

[NCASAUmp]

I disagree. I never call a runner out for leaving early unless I'm 100% sure. I hate when umps don't distinguish the difference between upper body movement and the runners foot coming off the base early.

^^^^^
This.

 

[BretMan]

Missed bases and leaving early on a catch are two particular calls where you should never call an out unless you're 100% sure you saw the infraction. And if you are getting into position like you're supposed to and watching what you're supposed to...you will see them!

 

[vipvanilla]

I disagree. I never call a runner out for leaving early unless I'm 100% sure. I hate when umps don't distinguish the difference between upper body movement and the runners foot coming off the base early.

^^^^^
This.

Missed bases and leaving early on a catch are two particular calls where you should never call an out unless you're 100% sure you saw the infraction. And if you are getting into position like you're supposed to and watching what you're supposed to...you will see them!

Completely agree with you guys! A base runner needs to be smart though too. I've seen some guys getting all anxious standing on the bag with a lot of unnecessary movement. While the ump shouldn't call this, I think it'd be hard not to for an unseasoned ump!

 

[COMEONBLUE]

I agree with the above couple posts. You can never guess a runner out. Having said this, even with a 2-man umpire system, watching the runners tag is the Home plate umpires call. While it can be tricky when the bases are loaded, it's not that tough. Getting in proper position is the answer. Also, emphisis on the runner most likely to be played on, in other words, the runner most likely to cut it close, is important. ie....bases loaded, no one out, deep fly to rightfield. Most likely play is on the runner tagging at first. This is where an umpires emphisis should be. ie.....bases loaded, no out, medium depth, centerfield, umpires emphisis needs to be on runner tagging at third, and possibly tagging at second. Listening to the infielders yelling, to instruct the outfielder where to throw the ball, second, second, second, for example, let's you know to watch runner tagging on first, as that's the one the defense will also be watching.

Recap.....emphisis on the runner most likely to try and get a good jump, but never never guess a runner out. If an umpire is unsure, he must give the benefit of doubt to the runner.

 

[gotigersgo]

It's called peripheral vision. It's not that difficult. I was coaching 3rd last night and my teammate left 2nd early. The other team didn't notice, but I did. Quit whining about the umps. When you go through an entire season and bat 1.000 with zero errors, then I'll listen to you whine about the umps.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I agree with the above couple posts. You can never guess a runner out. Having said this, even with a 2-man umpire system, watching the runners tag is the Home plate umpires call. While it can be tricky when the bases are loaded, it's not that tough. Getting in proper position is the answer. Also, emphisis on the runner most likely to be played on, in other words, the runner most likely to cut it close, is important. ie....bases loaded, no one out, deep fly to rightfield. Most likely play is on the runner tagging at first. This is where an umpires emphisis should be. ie.....bases loaded, no out, medium depth, centerfield, umpires emphisis needs to be on runner tagging at third, and possibly tagging at second. Listening to the infielders yelling, to instruct the outfielder where to throw the ball, second, second, second, for example, let's you know to watch runner tagging on first, as that's the one the defense will also be watching.

Recap.....emphisis on the runner most likely to try and get a good jump, but never never guess a runner out. If an umpire is unsure, he must give the benefit of doubt to the runner.

Just FYI, this is not always the case. Umpires have specific runner assignments. The plate umpire has, at most, one runner in a two umpire system (assuming the base umpire does not go out to call the catch or fair/foul).

 

[rtaven]

if i don't know umpire and early in game , when a runner clearly misses a bag and i know the umpire was not looking i will apeal and if he calls him safe that is fine but don,t tell me he hit the bag,just call him safe or say i didn,t see it.that way i find out who i'm dealing with. or some umpires will say they don,t call missed bases thats fine to i guess ,that way i won,t wast my time .

 

[vipvanilla]

if i don't know umpire and early in game , when a runner clearly misses a bag and i know the umpire was not looking i will apeal and if he calls him safe that is fine but don,t tell me he hit the bag,just call him safe or say i didn,t see it.that way i find out who i'm dealing with. or some umpires will say they don,t call missed bases thats fine to i guess ,that way i won,t wast my time .

please spend a LITTLE time proofreading...

 

[eddieq]

if i don't know umpire and early in game , when a runner clearly misses a bag and i know the umpire was not looking i will apeal and if he calls him safe that is fine but don,t tell me he hit the bag,just call him safe or say i didn,t see it.that way i find out who i'm dealing with. or some umpires will say they don,t call missed bases thats fine to i guess ,that way i won,t wast my time .

Huh? You posting from a cell phone or something?

 

[MrEye]

I understood him and I agree. He's saying he'd rather have an ump say, "Safe" and possibly, "I wasn't looking" as opposed to, "Safe, he got the bag", etc. Don't tell me you saw it when I looked at you and you were looking into the outfield and I know with 100% certainty he missed the base. It's like calling me a liar.

I had this happen at a tournament playing first. 1st batter of the game with a light mist covering the dust of the infield. He cuts first by 3 feet. You can see his footprints - the only ones there besides mine from button-hooking into the inside of the bases (something the base ump should have been doing as well, but she was standing on the edge watching the ball in the outfield. She told me he got the bag. Come on!

 

[NCASAUmp]

If I didn't get the best look at it, I'll just say, "I didn't see him leave early." It happens a lot when you have bases loaded and there's a fly ball to the outfield. I prioritize watching the runner on 2nd, and I give the runner on 1st my best effort. And sometimes, that means I will miss that runner on 1st leaving early.

 

[Traenok]

I side with Bretman and NCASA on this one. Only beef I have is the umps that are persuaded when they didn't see it. And you know the ones. "I honestly didn't see it him leave early but if you say so, he's gone."

They are few and far between however. In our league they are mainly if they didn't seer it or can't make a call, runner safe. Only problem our umps see to uniformly make is calling time way early. Won't let us throw behind runners etc... but I'll live with that any day over horrible play calling.