The fall of 9 man modified.

[buildingmaint]

Has anyone ever considered that maybe the fall of the 9 man game was due to TWO different pitching rules ? How could you have a 9 man league with Major and A teams? Would you allow the Major teams to use the Major pitching rule, and then make the A teams follow the A pitching rule, while in the same league? How would that work when they play each other ? How hard would it be to ump in a league like that ? At least in 10 man there is ONE pitching rule, and where you played was or is determined how good of players you have , and not what pitching style your pitchers use.

 

[Fastpitch 2011]

The 9man game died in Midland, Michigan In 2001. Only after that mess did the 10 man game come to Michigan. The 9 man sling is what my team fell in love with, and the way Modified should be played. If you want your granpa throwing you B.P. 10 Man is your game.

 

[slinga]

Absolutely agree. That was the begining of the end. What was done at the tournament was a crime.

 

[TheFootballRef]

Do tell ...........

 

[catch21]

I too woulsd like to hear what happened....

I was still playing traveling ball then, dont recall hearing anything.

for me the death of 9 man was allowing anyone and everyone to pitch. the limits of what were legal and what wasnt were changed so drastically it basically made it so dan quisenberry would be legal.
major softball had so many teams in the 70's, 80's and early 90's because the pitching wasnt overly dominant like it becamse in the late 90's. if your pitching was suspect but you had a good hitting team you could compete. now, if ya dont have one of the top 10 pitchers you basically got no chance.

EDIT: another factor for the death was allowing of people to play from what out of their ...zone? for lack of a better term. teams had players from 3 states, 3 countries. way back you were only allowed to have 1 or 2(if that) players from out of your area play for your team

bring back the old pitching rules and actually enforce them and you will see a comback in 9 man

 

[BLAR13]

For those who don't know about what happened in 2001 here is what happened. ASA wanted to have a clear upper and lower divison of 9-man. I do not know why they decided to dothis instead of just pushing the 10-man game but ASA sent a letter to coaches saying A would be strict pitching motion and if you want to sling play Major.(I am paraphrasing but that is the point of the letter) Teams from New York and mass didn't believe that it would happen and paid there slingers anyways and showed up and got banged illegal all tournament long. So teams got pissed and complained and the game evolved to wide open pitching. Michigan gets blamed for this but it was an ASA ruling that just so happened when Nationals were in MI. Also MI umpires do love to call that illegal pitch.

 

[KATMAN23]

That is bull****, we did not get a letter,from the asa and it was just not ny and mass teams that got called illegal it was most of the teams that were there got called.

 

[BLAR13]

Not bull**** saw the letter and was clearly told to us by our state director and yes I am from MI. I didn't say other teams didn't get called I said NY and Mass still brought their paid pitchers. Westminster Chiropractic I know for sure did not sure if anyone else from Mass did

 

[catch21]

being from NY i dont recall hearing about a letter. but i didnt run the team. also we didnt go to michigan that year.

 

[buildingmaint]

ASA I'm sure stands for AMATEUR Softball Association , if players are paid they are not Amateurs . Has anyone ever found proof that players get paid ? Not just he said she said . And not just well Joe Blow says he gets paid for playing softball, cause people lie, proof that would stand up in court.

 

[kodiak17]

that is the year the skyliners won it a team from jersey that was in midland correct

 

[blakcherry329]

ASA I'm sure stands for AMATEUR Softball Association , if players are paid they are not Amateurs . Has anyone ever found proof that players get paid ? Not just he said she said . And not just well Joe Blow says he gets paid for playing softball, cause people lie, proof that would stand up in court.

Really?

Players get paid in leagues, so I'm sure it was going on in a National Tournament. I played in leagues, in NJ, where some teams flew pitchers in from Puerto Rico for a few games.

 

[TheFootballRef]

ASA wanted to have a clear upper and lower divison of 9-man. I do not know why they decided to dothis instead of just pushing the 10-man game but ASA sent a letter to coaches saying A would be strict pitching motion and if you want to sling play Major. Teams from New York and mass didn't believe that it would happen and paid there slingers anyways and showed up and got banged illegal all tournament long. So teams got pissed and complained and the game evolved to wide open pitching.

July '01 is when I stopped playing because of an ACL tear. Had not heard about any of that.

The ASA has always preached two seperate divisions in 9 man. It made sense to me and I had no problem with it. I consider myself a decent hitter, but I know there were some pitchers out there I wouldn't have had too much success against at all. The A division gave people the ability to play 9 man without having to face guys like Solano.

If the ASA was able to verify all of the coaches got the warning letter of how it was going to be called, they should have stuck to their guns.

But let's be honest, except for Major's, every single tournament has a pitcher that shouldn't be throwing, but the umps don't have the cahonas to call it.

Human nature. Some people need to win and will do whatever they can regardless of the rules. It's up to the umps to make it a level playing field.

 

[Coachb12]

I won't mention any names.Teams I have coached have bargained with upper echelon pitchers.They have demanded that their plane tickets,hotel rooms,meals and their share of the vehicle rentals paid for.Some wanted wives,kids,girlfriends paid for.Some pitchers wanted to be paid per game.Others wanted bonus money for wins,strikeouts,and winning the tournament championship.I have heard that international players have been given jobs so they can stay in the USA.I heard one scale was 20 grand for pitchers and 10 grand for posistion players.We wanted a pitcher but were denied because he lived in PA.Meanwhile you had players from Australia,New Zealand,PR,The Dominican Republic,Canada,and Marry Your Cousin,Alabama.ASA stands for Any Sum Available.If you are a team that plays by the rules are you going to win a tournament with teams that have plenty of money?Stevie Wonder could see all the corruption.

 

[diggs2]

Hey guys. I am running a 9man open pitch here in Green Bay in May. I am following the banned pitch rule only. If your on the ASA banned pitcher list you are not able to throw. However we do have a lot of sling shot throwers in this state and it is it's first annual and I will make it a success. We hav the teams who like sling but play 10 man with a sling pitcher and why not eliminate the 10 man and go 9 and bat 10? Why not do that and you can still keep your 10 man and DH happy their still on the team.

If possible I may even do a national invite if 9 man here in WI can get up and running at the end of the year in Sept. I have 6-8 umpires who will only be able to call balls and strikes and understand the pitching rule is NO hopping, rocking back and just sling it to your catcher.

Let me knnow some thoguhts!!!! Thanks fellas!!!!

 

[Coachb12]

You have alot of 10 man teams that have pitchers who give up alot of fly balls and depend on that 4th outfielder.Alot of 10 man teams don't have the team speed to play a 3 man outfield.It isn't a matter of not wanting to play 9 man it's a matter of playing on a level that meets the skill level of your players.If you don't have a sling pitcher,a top notch gap to gap center fielder,you have to play 10 man.

 

[diggs2]

OK. That does make sense and we play a 3 man outfield on 300' fences and fill the IF with 5 guys. I know for 9 man the park would be about 265-270' and that should not be to much to cover Just some thoughts out there to try to get the game going again. I would like to see a 9 man modified go and see what can come of it and maybe keep this discussion going and see if all east coast and midwestern teams would like to find a spot to have a unofficial national 9 man tourny.

 

[TH#2]

diggs2 - I commend you for trying to startup or rebuilt the 9 man sling game at the tournament level, however this game is all but dead here in the northeast, this year there were about a hand full of teams on the tournament circuit. So don't expect to see many teams from this area. Also the ASA pitchers list so out dated. I recommend not using it. The ISA pitchers list is more realistic.

I run a sling team and we are looking to go fastpitch mostly next year. We may play in one sling tournament next year (maybe).

And as for $$$ and players\pitchers… that will NEVER stop at curtain levels.. Its expected to help with travel expense.

 

[Show#24]

I say go to a 11 man team and make hitters really work to hit!! Just my 2 cent!

 

[diggs2]

diggs2 - I commend you for trying to startup or rebuilt the 9 man sling game at the tournament level, however this game is all but dead here in the northeast, this year there were about a hand full of teams on the tournament circuit. So don't expect to see many teams from this area. Also the ASA pitchers list so out dated. I recommend not using it. The ISA pitchers list is more realistic.

I run a sling team and we are looking to go fastpitch mostly next year. We may play in one sling tournament next year (maybe).

And as for $$$ and players\pitchers… that will NEVER stop at curtain levels.. Its expected to help with travel expense.

I hear ya. Sucks some people do not man up or either step up and play or do not complain and walk away. We had a really decent team the last couple years in 10 man and a solid legal pitcher but I do not have the time to play and travel to all the FP tournys so if I could make some local open pitch 9 man maybe we could. It is all a dream lol But some teams and we did as well play sling shot in 10 man and whats the deal with missing a IF? I say find a stud SS and you will be fine.

Thanks for the input and I hope this tourny will make 10 teams but who knows.

Catch ya on the flip side partna!!!!

 

[buildingmaint]

All the posts are great , but no one answered the question. In 10 man there is one pitching rule, if your team is real good you are Major, good A , adverage B , suck C. They can all play in the same league , because there is ONE pitching rule/style. In 9 man there are / were 2 pitching rules /tyles, AND the question is , how can you have a 9 man league with 2 pitching styles? Not every team will be a major team, but if your league had the major pitching rule , they would be major. If the league had the A pitching rule , then every team would be A, no matter how good the teams were, they would be classed by the leagues pitching rule. It would be like trying to have NFL teams play Canadian Football League teams , yes same game , but differant rules 110/100 yard field , forward motion toward line of scrimage ok / not ok.

 

[NY2435]

I would say just go pure fastpitch and do not mess with sling too much. If it is a lower rec type league a decent sling pitcher throwing sling is going to hold his own any way.

Guys that can pitch sling will likely catch on to full windmill pretty quick if they put any effort into it. Plus there are fairly respected organizations for mens FP such as NAFA and the ISC. It is an excellent amateur sport and should be a full Olympic event for both men and women.

Personally I am purist when it comes to ball and love good pitching and defense. My opinion of many modified players(I have played modified and sling tournaments in NJ/NYC area) is they complain way too much about illegal pitching. Especially when all the games in a give tourney are running score like 16 to 20 in the 3rd inning.

 

[catch21]

All the posts are great , but no one answered the question. In 10 man there is one pitching rule, if your team is real good you are Major, good A , adverage B , suck C. They can all play in the same league , because there is ONE pitching rule/style. In 9 man there are / were 2 pitching rules /tyles, AND the question is , how can you have a 9 man league with 2 pitching styles? Not every team will be a major team, but if your league had the major pitching rule , they would be major. If the league had the A pitching rule , then every team would be A, no matter how good the teams were, they would be classed by the leagues pitching rule. It would be like trying to have NFL teams play Canadian Football League teams , yes same game , but differant rules 110/100 yard field , forward motion toward line of scrimage ok / not ok.

the thing is, ther "rules" changed from tourney to tourney, month to month.
each regional tourny directer had rules they went by and those were not the same as in other areas.

back in 1975 ASA grabbed a pitcher from silvestri's. they made all the umpires at the national come and watch him pitch a side session. ASA explained that he was the "ideal" form of a legal pitcher. they wanted the umps to base their legal/illegal calls off of how this guy threw.

the next year the same pitcher was banged illegal to the point he was unable to pitch.
go figure.

 

[catch21]

I would say just go pure fastpitch and do not mess with sling too much. If it is a lower rec type league a decent sling pitcher throwing sling is going to hold his own any way.

Guys that can pitch sling will likely catch on to full windmill pretty quick if they put any effort into it. Plus there are fairly respected organizations for mens FP such as NAFA and the ISC. It is an excellent amateur sport and should be a full Olympic event for both men and women.

Personally I am purist when it comes to ball and love good pitching and defense. My opinion of many modified players(I have played modified and sling tournaments in NJ/NYC area) is they complain way too much about illegal pitching. Especially when all the games in a give tourney are running score like 16 to 20 in the 3rd inning.

if scores are that high then the pitching/defense is obviously not up to snuff and no one should say a word about the legality of a pitcher when he cant throw well enough to get anyone out.
I'd love to play in that tourney.

I dont recall ever seeing scores that consistently high in any major modified tourney EVER.
not sure what tourneys you were going to

 

[Fastpitch 2011]

The only letter any1 ever received from Midland in 2001 was an invitation from the Midland Redcoats association inviting them to their National Tournament. There was never any letter explaining sling/strict. This was my teams 2cd full season playing game, and the only reason we were invited was because it was in our home state, and we finished in the top 5 at our state tournament. John Coppins had a very good sling pitcher at the time, Rob Collimer and would use him almost exclusively. Collins brought the tournament to Midland, in hopes to load his team up with the best he could buy at the time. They still **** the bed their. We were not much better finishing 2-2. I remember my biggest ***** back then was this. The 2000 M.V.P. Was back with his team competing and routinely was getting banged. That's when we knew we were losing our game.

 

[buildingmaint]

In 2001 Coppens Brigade finished 3-2 tied for 13th place, their all americans were Pitcher Jerry Beyersdorf, and an Outfielder Mike Losa, so the best players Coppens could buy only got them 13th place, I'd get my money back. In 2000 Coppens finished 5-2 for 4th place with Rob Collamar pitching, Rob McQueen was the 2000 MVP Pitching for . In 2001 Snapon/Netspoke from Bow NH in that name and State were not even listed as being there under that Sponsor name.

 

[Fastpitch 2011]

McQueen was the guy. Not sure who he played with in Midland that year but he was the one who kept getting banged, and was the tournaments previous MVP. The old knuckler Beyersdorf may have gotten 2cd team that year but Collimer was still their guy. My point being is that the host Midland team had a very good pitcher who was a slinger and I believe an all American the year prior In Fondy, they started Collimer every game that tournament.

 

[hammer1942]

hello modified boardmember

I was here before as hammer44/38. just want to said I am back , and still looking for a team close to Chicago , IL . I will consider states that boarder IL .
I am not looking to paid just a chance to play. I am also thinking about starting my own team . hello to KATMAN23 , DIGGS2 TH#2 , AND SWASH3

 

[TH#2]

hello hammer1942, why the new username.. please don't say to forgot your password.. just kidding.. good to see your still at it...

I was here before as hammer44/38. just want to said I am back , and still looking for a team close to Chicago , IL . I will consider states that boarder IL .
I am not looking to paid just a chance to play. I am also thinking about starting my own team . hello to KATMAN23 , DIGGS2 TH#2 , AND SWASH3

 

[diggs2]

Building maint I am sorry. I say no matter the class for true legal pitching for modified it is the same. There is a huge difference in speed, hitting spots, and movement from C thru A. But I have seen cobbers in A get people out due to pitching on location around the zone. But legal is legal and I know I have a tremendous legal pitcher and thosses cutters and hits spots. He is a true A pitcher and also the main difference tween C B A teams ins the D and hitters. Pitching is key too.

In regards to 9 man there should be no class. All open is OPEN and if people think there should be then they need to go home and complain to their ladies. 9man should be sling shot and usually has old fastpitch pitchers and one thing I feel should be true is NOT having the Aussies, NZ, and other foreign pitchers. You should be born in US and thats it.

Thanks again!!!!