This play happened in a Florida state championship game in 2011. Offensive team has a runner at second. Defensive coach comes out of the dugout and calls his infielders over to him. Coach does not cross the foul line. Pitcher stays in the circle with the ball. Offensive team thinking timeout has been called so runner leaves the base to talk to her coach. Umpires immediately called her out for a circle violation. Is this truly a legal play
Other Trick play. Is it legal
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NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
It may technically be a violation, but I think it's more an example of bad game management. If I have a coach step onto the field when all apparently play has completed, I'm calling time, as well as reminding them that they're to ask me for time before stepping onto the field.
MaverickAH
Well-Known Member
1. Whether the coach crosses the line or not, a defensive conference should have been charged & time should have been called.
2. If all defensive players are not in fair territory, play cannot continue. Anything that happens after they left fair territory is moot.
Bad job by the umpires involved..........
2. If all defensive players are not in fair territory, play cannot continue. Anything that happens after they left fair territory is moot.
Bad job by the umpires involved..........
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
I'm not familiar with NCAA rules, but I can't imagine this would be covered by the rules.
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
What does the NCAA have to do with it?
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
The umpire has two options, suspend play for this defensive conference or send the coach back to the dugout. In either case, the ball is dead during this period.
Stepping over the foul line is irrelevant
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
I misinterpreted what he said. When he said it was a "Florida state championship," I thought he meant the "Florida State championship," as in the College World Series for 2011. But I got it mixed up - Florida State didn't make it to the finals that year, Florida did.
DeputyUICHousto
Addicted to Softballfans
Speaking ASA, I'd have a look at the definition of a charged conference. I think you'll find your answer there.
AH23
Addicted to Softballfans
Hopefully the coach hasn't used their three charged defensive conferences yet...if the coach wants to keep their current pitcher at their current position.
Me personally, I'm killing play and calling time when the coach comes on the field (if I'm behind the plate). If they don't announce they want time I'm asking them if they do. If they were to say no I'd send the coach back to the dugout.
Me personally, I'm killing play and calling time when the coach comes on the field (if I'm behind the plate). If they don't announce they want time I'm asking them if they do. If they were to say no I'd send the coach back to the dugout.
MaverickAH
Well-Known Member
ASA says:
CHARGED CONFERENCE: When a team representative requests a suspension of play or delays the game for the purpose of delivering a message to another team member, unless the pitcher is removed from the pitching position.
I think that this situation qualifies..........
DeputyUICHousto
Addicted to Softballfans
That was my point!
You do have a certain amount of time to deliver the next pitch. I would think that as long as you fit in that time restriction it would not be a delay. And if outside of that time the penalty is a ball called. It normally doesn't take that much time for a runner to step off base to visit coach. Just being the devils advocate for arguments sake
The defensive coach is not allowed outside the dugout. If he steps out and enters the field the umpire should call time and instruct the coach to return to the dugout.
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
This is from ASA Rules Clarifications, June 2014:
Play: With no outs and R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B, B3 bunts the ball and is thrown out at 1B. R1 advances to 3B and R2 to 2B. After the first pitch to B4, F2 returns the ball to F1 removes her mask and glove and walks toward the pitcher’s circle at which time the plate umpire calls “time.” After that half inning ends the coach of the team that was on defense tells the umpire not to call time when their catcher removes their equipment and goes to the pitching circle. He informs the umpire that they had a trick play they use to draw the runners off their bases thus getting a runner called out for violation of the Look Back Rule.
Ruling: We do not specifically mention trick plays in the ASA/USA Rule Book or Umpire Manual. If all playing action is over and the pitcher has the ball in the eight foot circle, the runners are required to go one way or the other. That said we should teach umpires as part of Game Management that any time the catcher goes to the eight foot circle to talk to the pitcher “time” should be called as long as all play has ceased. In this case, this would be interpreted as the runners have returned to or are returning to their base. Umpires should call “time” as a courtesy for the catcher so that the one time the catcher forgets to request time they are covered by our mechanics. We should not let a mechanic that was started to protect the defense become a trick play. We will call time when the catcher vacates their position to go to the circle to protect them as well as the integrity of the game. Rule 8, Section 7T.
Play: With no outs and R1 on 2B and R2 on 1B, B3 bunts the ball and is thrown out at 1B. R1 advances to 3B and R2 to 2B. After the first pitch to B4, F2 returns the ball to F1 removes her mask and glove and walks toward the pitcher’s circle at which time the plate umpire calls “time.” After that half inning ends the coach of the team that was on defense tells the umpire not to call time when their catcher removes their equipment and goes to the pitching circle. He informs the umpire that they had a trick play they use to draw the runners off their bases thus getting a runner called out for violation of the Look Back Rule.
Ruling: We do not specifically mention trick plays in the ASA/USA Rule Book or Umpire Manual. If all playing action is over and the pitcher has the ball in the eight foot circle, the runners are required to go one way or the other. That said we should teach umpires as part of Game Management that any time the catcher goes to the eight foot circle to talk to the pitcher “time” should be called as long as all play has ceased. In this case, this would be interpreted as the runners have returned to or are returning to their base. Umpires should call “time” as a courtesy for the catcher so that the one time the catcher forgets to request time they are covered by our mechanics. We should not let a mechanic that was started to protect the defense become a trick play. We will call time when the catcher vacates their position to go to the circle to protect them as well as the integrity of the game. Rule 8, Section 7T.
MaverickAH
Well-Known Member
I will say this.......
Fed rules are worded differently than ASA when it come to the definition of a charged conference. They don't include the "or........" portion of the definition. The coach and/or bench personnel must request & be granted a timeout in order for it to be a charged conference.
In any case, as long as all ongoing play has ceased, as soon as that coach or team rep steps out of the dugout, time should be called by the umpire. That'll cut out any potential bs by either the defense or offense!
Fed rules are worded differently than ASA when it come to the definition of a charged conference. They don't include the "or........" portion of the definition. The coach and/or bench personnel must request & be granted a timeout in order for it to be a charged conference.
In any case, as long as all ongoing play has ceased, as soon as that coach or team rep steps out of the dugout, time should be called by the umpire. That'll cut out any potential bs by either the defense or offense!
FED's charged conference rule may be worded differently, but according to the case play it is treated exactly the same as ASA. If the coach delays the game to talk to their players it is a charged conference.
Case play 2.14.1
After walking 2 consecutive batters, (a) F1's coach or (b) F5 goes over to talk with F1. Ruling: Legal in (a) and (b). However, in (a), it is a charged conference. (3-7-1)
Nowhere in the case play does it say the coach asked for and was granted time.
Case play 2.14.1
After walking 2 consecutive batters, (a) F1's coach or (b) F5 goes over to talk with F1. Ruling: Legal in (a) and (b). However, in (a), it is a charged conference. (3-7-1)
Nowhere in the case play does it say the coach asked for and was granted time.