Any Tried to teach the ump something today

[hookumsnivy]

We had an ump today that we never had before. Seemed like a nice enough guy and tried his best, but he was bad.

I won't go into most of it because it doesn't matter.

Note: the entire time I was very polite.
In the 2nd game I was catching and he called a pitch short. I politely asked him if he meant low instead of short. He confirmed that he meant short. I said it didn't bounce on or before the plate. He pointed to where he thought it bounced (he was wrong, but that didn't matter) and it was behind the left corner of the plate and said it needs to completely cross the plate. I was dumbfounded but let it go.
After the game was over (it was the bottom of the 7th and we won) I said to him that unless the ball bounces on the plate, it doesn't matter where it lands. I stood next to the plate and pointed from my front knee to back shoulder and said if the ball crosses the plate at any point between these 2 heights, it's a strike as long as it doesn't hit the plate. He pointed to the back most corner of the plate and said the way I call it the ball must pass this point.
I said that's great, but that's not the official strike zone. Hopefully he learned something.

I do know this though: he won't be umping another one of our games. The UIC is on my team (yeah, I know it's unusual and a potential conflict of interest, but he NEVER says a word to the umps regarding rules, calls, or anything else during a game) and schedules the umps.


On a side note: if he called "Deep" one more time I might have screamed. He had told one of the other catchers that the ball must bounce within 1.5 feet after crossing the plate. This is utrip by the way and definitely not a mat league.

 

[RDD15]

If the UIC schedules this ump for any other games in the league, but he avoids scheduling this guy for your games, the conflict of interest in 100% occurring.

Your UIC needs to spend some time instructing this guy before he is scheduled for any more games.

 

[hookumsnivy]

He said he plans on discussing a number of things with him. He just didn't want to do it with everyone around.
You're correct, the scheduling can be seen as a conflict of interest. I meant during the games. It's not like he schedules the same ump every time either. We've had a different ump almost every week. Playoffs start in 2 weeks so the better umps will be getting more games anyways.

I didn't want to go into all the things he was doing wrong because I'm not here to bash umps. I was just pointing out that sometimes inexperienced umps need to be told politely what they are doing wrong by more experienced umps or players that know the rulebook better. Otherwise they won't get better.
Since I was catching I got a really good idea of what the ump needs to work on. I passed those things along to the UIC and he can instruct him privately. If you want a list if you think it would help other people, I can provide it.

 

[DSNuts48]

I'm no ump, but I would be very pissed if someone was sitting there the whole game telling me how to do my job.

 

[hookumsnivy]

I'm no ump, but I would be very pissed if someone was sitting there the whole game telling me how to do my job.

I didn't tell him during the game. I told him after the game. During the game even though I was polite about it I probably would have been tossed and would have deserved it. After the game I'm just trying to help him out and not show him up.

 

[bb666b77]

We had an ump today that we never had before. Seemed like a nice enough guy and tried his best, but he was bad.

I won't go into most of it because it doesn't matter.

Note: the entire time I was very polite.
In the 2nd game I was catching and he called a pitch short. I politely asked him if he meant low instead of short. He confirmed that he meant short. I said it didn't bounce on or before the plate. He pointed to where he thought it bounced (he was wrong, but that didn't matter) and it was behind the left corner of the plate and said it needs to completely cross the plate. I was dumbfounded but let it go.
After the game was over (it was the bottom of the 7th and we won) I said to him that unless the ball bounces on the plate, it doesn't matter where it lands. I stood next to the plate and pointed from my front knee to back shoulder and said if the ball crosses the plate at any point between these 2 heights, it's a strike as long as it doesn't hit the plate. He pointed to the back most corner of the plate and said the way I call it the ball must pass this point.
I said that's great, but that's not the official strike zone. Hopefully he learned something.

I do know this though: he won't be umping another one of our games. The UIC is on my team (yeah, I know it's unusual and a potential conflict of interest, but he NEVER says a word to the umps regarding rules, calls, or anything else during a game) and schedules the umps.


On a side note: if he called "Deep" one more time I might have screamed. He had told one of the other catchers that the ball must bounce within 1.5 feet after crossing the plate. This is utrip by the way and definitely not a mat league.

this drives me crazy when they say it must drop into a "box" behind the plate instead of calling a strike zone.i had an utrip ump(a tourney this past weekend) calling strikes for me that went up to aprox 8-9' that i was dropping right behind the plate,the other team was crying big time saying they were to hi and the pitches were illegal.they started the ol this is not ASA talk/crap,i about fell out on the mound laughing,guess they don't know that ASA and utrip have the same hi limit now(10').

 

[IKnowNothing]

an ump in one of my leagues has no concept of deep. Its to the point where all pitchers in the league throw pitches that cross the plate at the batters hat bill because they are called strikes.

any time someone tries to bring it up with the ump he turns his back and walks away (mind you, this is after the game or before the game, not during the game).

When it is brought up to the LD, she just defers to the umps judgment.

rant over.

 

[hookumsnivy]

an ump in one of my leagues has no concept of deep. Its to the point where all pitchers in the league throw pitches that cross the plate at the batters hat bill because they are called strikes.

any time someone tries to bring it up with the ump he turns his back and walks away (mind you, this is after the game or before the game, not during the game).

When it is brought up to the LD, she just defers to the umps judgment.

rant over.

That's good because "DEEP" is meaningless. If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're complaining about is that the pitch is high and not going through the strike zone. Deep is a cop-out by umps who don't know the strike zone. Unfortunately I find more and more umps call it because they learn from other umps who do it. You will NOT find it in the rule book.

If the pitch goes through the strike zone there are only a few things that can cause it to be called something other than a strike:
- It hits the plate
- It was flat
- It was illegal (went higher than the max acceptable height)
- It had excessive speed (judgement call)
- it was a quick pitch
- something else that would consider it an illegal or unfairly delivered pitch.

It's possible I missed some other event.

Where it lands (other than the plate) is irrelevant if it went through the strike zone at any point.


On a side note, if you think the ump is calling high pitches strikes, take a step back in the box and then they will be hittable.

 

[JohnnyH]

I have a good idea of the strike zone most of the time. What has always got me is the plate rule. A ball right down the middle that hits the point of the plate is a ball but balls 2 inches wider that dont hit the plate are strikes. I have always thought that was crazy but i guess we have to work with what we have...which is a pentagon and not a square.

 

[hookumsnivy]

I have a good idea of the strike zone most of the time. What has always got me is the plate rule. A ball right down the middle that hits the point of the plate is a ball but balls 2 inches wider that dont hit the plate are strikes. I have always thought that was crazy but i guess we have to work with what we have...which is a pentagon and not a square.

Yes, it is very odd. But the rules are the rules.

 

[S20]

We had an ump today that we never had before. Seemed like a nice enough guy and tried his best, but he was bad.

I won't go into most of it because it doesn't matter.

Note: the entire time I was very polite.
In the 2nd game I was catching and he called a pitch short. I politely asked him if he meant low instead of short. He confirmed that he meant short. I said it didn't bounce on or before the plate. He pointed to where he thought it bounced (he was wrong, but that didn't matter) and it was behind the left corner of the plate and said it needs to completely cross the plate. I was dumbfounded but let it go.
After the game was over (it was the bottom of the 7th and we won) I said to him that unless the ball bounces on the plate, it doesn't matter where it lands. I stood next to the plate and pointed from my front knee to back shoulder and said if the ball crosses the plate at any point between these 2 heights, it's a strike as long as it doesn't hit the plate. He pointed to the back most corner of the plate and said the way I call it the ball must pass this point.
I said that's great, but that's not the official strike zone. Hopefully he learned something.

I do know this though: he won't be umping another one of our games. The UIC is on my team (yeah, I know it's unusual and a potential conflict of interest, but he NEVER says a word to the umps regarding rules, calls, or anything else during a game) and schedules the umps.


On a side note: if he called "Deep" one more time I might have screamed. He had told one of the other catchers that the ball must bounce within 1.5 feet after crossing the plate. This is utrip by the way and definitely not a mat league.

Just so you know what you are talking about next time you try to tell an umpire how to do his job.........It's actually the FRONT shoulder and front knee as if the batter is standing even with the plate.

 

[Lurker765]

Just so you know what you are talking about next time you try to tell an umpire how to do his job.........It's actually the FRONT shoulder and front knee as if the batter is standing even with the plate.

The other poster was correct. ASA rulebook Rule 1 Definition:

STRIKE ZONE: That space over any part of home plate, when a batter assumes a natural batting stance adjacent to home plate, between the batter’s,
A. (Fast Pitch) Arm pits and the top of the knees.
B. (Slow Pitch) Back shoulder and the front knee.

There is a link to the rules in a sticky in this forum if anyone is interested.

 

[S20]

The other poster was correct. ASA rulebook Rule 1 Definition:

STRIKE ZONE: That space over any part of home plate, when a batter assumes a natural batting stance adjacent to home plate, between the batter’s,
A. (Fast Pitch) Arm pits and the top of the knees.
B. (Slow Pitch) Back shoulder and the front knee.

There is a link to the rules in a sticky in this forum if anyone is interested.

If you read his post to the end, it said: "On a side note: if he called "Deep" one more time I might have screamed. He had told one of the other catchers that the ball must bounce within 1.5 feet after crossing the plate. This is utrip by the way and definitely not a mat league."
But it's a common mistake here on SBF. People just reading what they want to read.

So once again, in UTRIP: It's actually the FRONT shoulder and front knee as if the batter is standing even with the plate.

 

[Lurker765]

If you read his post to the end, it said: "On a side note: if he called "Deep" one more time I might have screamed. He had told one of the other catchers that the ball must bounce within 1.5 feet after crossing the plate. This is utrip by the way and definitely not a mat league."
But it's a common mistake here on SBF. People just reading what they want to read.

So once again, in UTRIP: It's actually the FRONT shoulder and front knee as if the batter is standing even with the plate.

I did not see the USSSA note since it was sneaky with utrip as the spelling.

In that case:

STRIKE ZONE is that space directly above home plate that is not higher than the batter’s highest shoulder, nor lower than the bottom of the batter’s front knee, when the batter assumes his natural batting stance. Any part of the pitched ball that passes through this zone is a strike.

I don't see that as the FRONT shoulder. It could be either.

 

[S20]

I did not see the USSSA note since it was sneaky with utrip as the spelling.

In that case:

STRIKE ZONE is that space directly above home plate that is not higher than the batter’s highest shoulder, nor lower than the bottom of the batter’s front knee, when the batter assumes his natural batting stance. Any part of the pitched ball that passes through this zone is a strike.

I don't see that as the FRONT shoulder. It could be either.

The front shoulder is a thing that all veteran Utrip umpires will use because 99% of the time it is the highest shoulder. But you are right, it could be either, but very rarely is.

 

[Lurker765]

The front shoulder is a thing that all veteran Utrip umpires will use because 99% of the time it is the highest shoulder. But you are right, it could be either, but very rarely is.

Sounds good to me. I don't play USSSA as much as ASA so I learned something new with this thread.

 

[S20]

Sounds good to me. I don't play USSSA as much as ASA so I learned something new with this thread.

Get out and watch the "Rocky Mountain Shootout" this weekend. You'll learn a lot more about UTrip.

 

[hookumsnivy]

The front shoulder is a thing that all veteran Utrip umpires will use because 99% of the time it is the highest shoulder. But you are right, it could be either, but very rarely is.

You're correct, I should have said top shoulder. Fortunately I didn't say back shoulder to him, I pointed and in my stance it is always my back shoulder

Bu I disagree completely with what you said there. The back shoulder is usually the higher one unless the hitter has a major uppercut. A hitter wouldn't want his back shoulder to be lower because everything he hits will go up in the air.
Look at your stance in the mirror, chances are your back shoulder will be the same height or higher. It will be even more pronounced if you have your elbow up (mine isn't). If you think about it, your top hand is in the back so unless you're dipping it will naturally be higher.

I find most people keep their weight and hips either back or balanced so the front shoulder would rarely be higher.