NSA Umpire's Take

[fitzpats]

Just wondering what some umpire’s thoughts are on this scenario. Nobody out, R1 on second, R2 on first (me), and B3 up to bat. B3 hits a ball that SS has to dive for. I look at the SS, but can’t see the ball or catch so I glance at FU. FU raises hand to his head, but nothing is audible (common theme throughout the night fo any out signal). As R2 runs back to first, PU signals that ball is not caught and fielders throw to third then second for their idea of a double play.

What should the call have been since there were differing calls by the umps, and at least one runner was confused by the other umps call? Umps conferred, home plate awarded the double play.

 

[BigSam]

No catch is a no catch, doesn't matter what the signal from the field ump was. As long as the ball isn't dead, play on. Double play, inning over.

 

[BretMan]

My take is that they have standard umpire mechanics for a reason, and when umpires ignore those standard mechanics things often get screwed up!

Only ONE umpire should be signalling anything here. In the sanctioning bodies I'm familiar with, that would be the home plate umpire. Maybe some other organizations are different, but whichever umpire has the responsibility for "catch/no catch" is the only ONE who should be signalling anything.

You won't have two different umpires signalling two different things if only ONE of them is making a signal!

If the umpires where to determine that their opposite signals put the runners in jeopardy, then the plate umpire can do what he can to fix this. The goal should be to place runners and remove or enforce outs to replicate whatever the most probable outcome would have been without the double calls.

There's no set in stone right or wrong solution. It's purely at the discretion of the plate umpire. Without seeing the play, it's hard to guess what the most likely outcome would have been. You need to see how the ball was hit, what the fielder had to do to field it, how the runners reacted to the hit and how they reacted to the double call.

A line drive caught (or almost caught) by the shortstop? I would imagine the defense is going to get at least one out here, if not two, double call or not. I would also imagine that the runners stayed somewhat close to their bases if a catch was possible, unlike if they were running on a ground ball.

I could see maybe calling the lead runner out and putting the batter on first base. That is a kind of "split the difference" solution that should have both teams about equally pissed off at the umpire!

 

[ureout]

BretMan is correct, poor umpire mechanics can cause a lot of problems...the base umpire should never signal a catch or point to the ground for a no catch unless pointed at by the home plate umpire....with the scenario you gave the base umpire should have stepped up and said that he made an out signal and confused the runners.....again I agree with BretMan lead runner is out and b/r to 1st base

 

[fitzpats]

My take is that they have standard umpire mechanics for a reason, and when umpires ignore those standard mechanics things often get screwed up!

Only ONE umpire should be signalling anything here. In the sanctioning bodies I'm familiar with, that would be the home plate umpire. Maybe some other organizations are different, but whichever umpire has the responsibility for "catch/no catch" is the only ONE who should be signalling anything.

You won't have two different umpires signalling two different things if only ONE of them is making a signal!

If the umpires where to determine that their opposite signals put the runners in jeopardy, then the plate umpire can do what he can to fix this. The goal should be to place runners and remove or enforce outs to replicate whatever the most probable outcome would have been without the double calls.

There's no set in stone right or wrong solution. It's purely at the discretion of the plate umpire. Without seeing the play, it's hard to guess what the most likely outcome would have been. You need to see how the ball was hit, what the fielder had to do to field it, how the runners reacted to the hit and how they reacted to the double call.

A line drive caught (or almost caught) by the shortstop? I would imagine the defense is going to get at least one out here, if not two, double call or not. I would also imagine that the runners stayed somewhat close to their bases if a catch was possible, unlike if they were running on a ground ball.

I could see maybe calling the lead runner out and putting the batter on first base. That is a kind of "split the difference" solution that should have both teams about equally pissed off at the umpire!

BretMan is correct, poor umpire mechanics can cause a lot of problems...the base umpire should never signal a catch or point to the ground for a no catch unless pointed at by the home plate umpire....with the scenario you gave the base umpire should have stepped up and said that he made an out signal and confused the runners.....again I agree with BretMan lead runner is out and b/r to 1st base

And that was something that I could/would agree with. I was off to second thinking that it was a trap, but didn't want to get doubled up because of the out call. Defense definitely would have gotten the lead, but doubtful that they would have gotten two. Thanks for the help and insight guys.