USSSA vs ASA pitching

[Reubeo28]

Maybe I'm missing something but why is the approach to pitching so different between the two. I understand the fakes and nonsense in utrip but from release to strikezone is a very similar ark and strike zone. Most pitches in the usssa major tournaments I watch are rarely below the asa 6' minimum pitch. I only pitch asa and everyone always tells me to pitch it as high as possible but if that is the best thing to do then why do the usssa guys not pitch it at max height?

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

Maybe I'm missing something but why is the approach to pitching so different between the two. I understand the fakes and nonsense in utrip but from release to strikezone is a very similar ark and strike zone. Most pitches in the usssa major tournaments I watch are rarely below the asa 6' minimum pitch. I only pitch asa and everyone always tells me to pitch it as high as possible but if that is the best thing to do then why do the usssa guys not pitch it at max height?

USSSA pitch requirements are for the pitched ball to have a minimum 3’ arc from the point of release from the pitchers hand and before it crosses the plate AND not be higher than 10’ at any point. 10’ is typically 4’ or less above most pitchers heads and thus the pitch mostly resembles a “meat” pitch in batting practice.

ASA/USA requires an arc that has a minimum of 6’ height after release from the pitchers hand and before reaching the plate and a maximum height of 12’, same start to finish requirements. The USSA pitch is significantly flatter to meet their rule book which was written many years ago to encourage more home run hitting.

Many players that play ASA/USA rules get used to a flatter, easier pitch to power in batting practice and then when they hit against a good ASA pitcher than can hit the strike zone with a consistent 12’ pitch many hitters struggle. Their position in the batters box changes, or should change to compensate for the higher pitch which crosses the plate at a steeper angle. Watch the best ASA teams, they have a pitcher that knows what it takes to keep Batters guessing.

 

[EAJuggalo]

USSSA pitch requirements are for the pitched ball to have a minimum 3’ arc from the point of release from the pitchers hand and before it crosses the plate AND not be higher than 10’ at any point. 10’ is typically 4’ or less above most pitchers heads and thus the pitch mostly resembles a “meat” pitch in batting practice.

ASA/USA requires an arc that has a minimum of 6’ height after release from the pitchers hand and before reaching the plate and a maximum height of 12’, same start to finish requirements. The USSA pitch is significantly flatter to meet their rule book which was written many years ago to encourage more home run hitting.

Many players that play ASA/USA rules get used to a flatter, easier pitch to power in batting practice and then when they hit against a good ASA pitcher than can hit the strike zone with a consistent 12’ pitch many hitters struggle. Their position in the batters box changes, or should change to compensate for the higher pitch which crosses the plate at a steeper angle. Watch the best ASA teams, they have a pitcher that knows what it takes to keep Batters guessing.

No you are just flat wrong on almost all of it.

USSSA is three feet up from release minimum, max height of 10' from the ground. USA is 6' minimum height from the ground and 10' maximum from the ground. The best USSSA pitchers, especially Mooch, can release that pitch at 1' get it up to 4', have it cross at the knee and land right behind the plate. That is why Conference USSSA hitters stand as far forward in the box as they can. There is also a historical lack of a high strike in USSSA compared to USA. Especially in Conference, pitches that get up to 9' are regularly called over the top and pitches that cross the plate at the letters are called deep. In USA those are both rightly called strikes.

Why don't Conference USSSA pitchers pitch at the top of the zone? They will if they are getting that pitch, most pitchers other than Mooch or Purcell will tickle that top and try to find out where it is. Tommy Baugh from Baugh Ford lights up when he sees certain umpires behind the plate, he knows he's going to get that 9.5 footer that lands 6 inches behind the plate called a strike.

 

[rmp0012002]

USSSA has always been a flatter pitch while in ASA the higher arc has been required. I think in recent years ASA has gone to less of an arc to bring in more players. When ASA was 6’-12’ and you get a good pitcher that could throw that arc and land it right behind the plate it was not easy to hit.

 

[jbo911]

No you are just flat wrong on almost all of it.

USSSA is three feet up from release minimum, max height of 10' from the ground. USA is 6' minimum height from the ground and 10' maximum from the ground. The best USSSA pitchers, especially Mooch, can release that pitch at 1' get it up to 4', have it cross at the knee and land right behind the plate. That is why Conference USSSA hitters stand as far forward in the box as they can. There is also a historical lack of a high strike in USSSA compared to USA. Especially in Conference, pitches that get up to 9' are regularly called over the top and pitches that cross the plate at the letters are called deep. In USA those are both rightly called strikes.

Why don't Conference USSSA pitchers pitch at the top of the zone? They will if they are getting that pitch, most pitchers other than Mooch or Purcell will tickle that top and try to find out where it is. Tommy Baugh from Baugh Ford lights up when he sees certain umpires behind the plate, he knows he's going to get that 9.5 footer that lands 6 inches behind the plate called a strike.

Exactly. Nobody throws it because nobody calls it. People say throw it in usa/asa because if they're coming from usssa it will seem crazy high.

Flatter pitches are easy to hit. If you're a pitcher, you should always change up the height, but in asa you will stick to the higher pitches more regularly. If you pitch a 6' pitch from the front of the rubber and a 10' pitch from the back it may take longer than a full second mor to teach the plate. It's coming so slow it's not going to really matter, but it is a difference.

I noticed the utrip rulebook changed back shoulder to highest shoulder for the strike zone. I think that forces a flatter pitch as well. Do you know why they did this, and if they plan on changing it back?

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

No you are just flat wrong on almost all of it.

USSSA is three feet up from release minimum, max height of 10' from the ground. USA is 6' minimum height from the ground and 10' maximum from the ground. The best USSSA pitchers, especially Mooch, can release that pitch at 1' get it up to 4', have it cross at the knee and land right behind the plate. That is why Conference USSSA hitters stand as far forward in the box as they can. There is also a historical lack of a high strike in USSSA compared to USA. Especially in Conference, pitches that get up to 9' are regularly called over the top and pitches that cross the plate at the letters are called deep. In USA those are both rightly called strikes.

Why don't Conference USSSA pitchers pitch at the top of the zone? They will if they are getting that pitch, most pitchers other than Mooch or Purcell will tickle that top and try to find out where it is. Tommy Baugh from Baugh Ford lights up when he sees certain umpires behind the plate, he knows he's going to get that 9.5 footer that lands 6 inches behind the plate called a strike.

Mr EAJuggalo. My description of USSSA is the same as yours, please read full context again and reply if you still differ. I described this as a flatter pitch than ASA and by definition I’m sure you would agree.

ASA/USA is 6’ to 12’ as I described in my original post.
See Rule 6, Section 3, Paragraph H from ASA/USA Official Rule Book Umpire Edition

 

[Tied to the whipping post]

No you are just flat wrong on almost all of it.

USSSA is three feet up from release minimum, max height of 10' from the ground. USA is 6' minimum height from the ground and 10' maximum from the ground. The best USSSA pitchers, especially Mooch, can release that pitch at 1' get it up to 4', have it cross at the knee and land right behind the plate. That is why Conference USSSA hitters stand as far forward in the box as they can. There is also a historical lack of a high strike in USSSA compared to USA. Especially in Conference, pitches that get up to 9' are regularly called over the top and pitches that cross the plate at the letters are called deep. In USA those are both rightly called strikes.

Why don't Conference USSSA pitchers pitch at the top of the zone? They will if they are getting that pitch, most pitchers other than Mooch or Purcell will tickle that top and try to find out where it is. Tommy Baugh from Baugh Ford lights up when he sees certain umpires behind the plate, he knows he's going to get that 9.5 footer that lands 6 inches behind the plate called a strike.

Additionally, since I am a Sr player I referenced the 6’ to 12’ requirement for Seniors, pardon my not being definitive to address the 6’ to 10’ pitching requirements for the other ASA/USA age and gender groups.

 

[dunkky]

personally, whether utrip or usa, i would rather see one common rule. I truly believe that will minimize the inconsistency of strikes being called by umpires. i've seen many times, flat pitches are being called strikes in usa by some umpires and vice-versa.

I know it's not gonna happen, just wishful thinking.

 

[jkwoody22]

$$$$$$

 

[jbo911]

personally, whether utrip or usa, i would rather see one common rule. I truly believe that will minimize the inconsistency of strikes being called by umpires. i've seen many times, flat pitches are being called strikes in usa by some umpires and vice-versa.

I know it's not gonna happen, just wishful thinking.

I don't care about that. The differences are minimal. U trip just put out a YouTube video a few years back training their umps that 3 from release was basically 6-10.

What i want is for the strike zone to go from basketball to tennis. What i mean is if one molecule of the ball passes through the strike zone it's a strike. In tennis if the ball touches the line its in, while in basketball any line equals out of bounds. It's coming in at 25 mph, make batting take some small amount of skill again.

 

[Reubeo28]

That's what is confusing me. So it is mostly just the umps call things differently between the 2? If the arc and strike zone is pretty much the same I'm confused. Obviously something has to be different or batters wouldn't position themselves different in the box between the 2. Sounds like it's more the umps let high deep pitches go in asa and flat pitches right behind the plate go in utrip. We use a strike mat so I can get away with a lot. I'm thinking if I throw flat and right behind the plate it will mess with the guys standing way back in the box.

I don't care about that. The differences are minimal. U trip just put out a YouTube video a few years back training their umps that 3 from release was basically 6-10.

What i want is for the strike zone to go from basketball to tennis. What i mean is if one molecule of the ball passes through the strike zone it's a strike. In tended of the ball touches the line its in, while in basketball any line equals out of bounds. It's coming in at 25 mph, make batting take some small amount of skill again.

 

[MAT25MAT]

Biggest difference for me is if you have a shaky usssa Ump it could destroy a game/tournament! But if you have an inconsistent USA Ump if he doesn’t call illegal you need to swing on something close! EA, Funny you mention mooch, you must be from Jersey!

 

[EAJuggalo]

Mr EAJuggalo. My description of USSSA is the same as yours, please read full context again and reply if you still differ. I described this as a flatter pitch than ASA and by definition I’m sure you would agree.

ASA/USA is 6’ to 12’ as I described in my original post.
See Rule 6, Section 3, Paragraph H from ASA/USA Official Rule Book Umpire Edition

Your
original post doesn't specify where 10' is from. There have been quite a few umpires and USA players that came to USSSA and believed that it was 10' from release. By the book it's not necessarily a flatter pitch, it gets called flatter in general but both have the same ceiling.

That is a great job with the rule cite, except as you mention in your next post, you are quoting the exception, not the rule.

I don't care about that. The differences are minimal. U trip just put out a YouTube video a few years back training their umps that 3 from release was basically 6-10.

What i want is for the strike zone to go from basketball to tennis. What i mean is if one molecule of the ball passes through the strike zone it's a strike. In tended of the ball touches the line its in, while in basketball any line equals out of bounds. It's coming in at 25 mph, make batting take some small amount of skill again.

You trip didn't put out the video, Doc and Jason did after Doc was forced out. It is the common belief in your area that 3-10 in USSSA is the same as 5-10 in GSL so you might be getting a few more called flat in GSL compared to other areas. If you stand at the rubber and don't do anything different in mechanics between the two it would be fairly close.

That is the way I call it and the way I was trained, for guys in your area you need to look at Slim, Stout and Maury. I was taught in MN to look for reasons you can call it a strike rather than look for reasons to call it a ball.

That's what is confusing me. So it is mostly just the umps call things differently between the 2? If the arc and strike zone is pretty much the same I'm confused. Obviously something has to be different or batters wouldn't position themselves different in the box between the 2. Sounds like it's more the umps let high deep pitches go in asa and flat pitches right behind the plate go in utrip. We use a strike mat so I can get away with a lot. I'm thinking if I throw flat and right behind the plate it will mess with the guys standing way back in the box.

If you can throw the 6' land it right behind the plate and not get called illegal, it will work. Same as if someone can throw the 10', get it to cross at the shoulder, not be called illegal and have that called a strike.

Biggest difference for me is if you have a shaky usssa Ump it could destroy a game/tournament! But if you have an inconsistent USA Ump if he doesn’t call illegal you need to swing on something close! EA, Funny you mention mooch, you must be from Jersey!

It shouldn't, it the strike zone is horrible and inconsistant it could be an issue, but you should be swinging at anything close anyway.
I'm not from Jersey, I'm from MN by way of WI, I've just had the unfortunate opportunity to umpire Mooch multiple times over the last few years. And when umpires at that level get together, one of the things we discuss is the new pitching antics we've seen, most of which have been invented by Mooch over the last few years.

I noticed the utrip rulebook changed back shoulder to highest shoulder for the strike zone. I think that forces a flatter pitch as well. Do you know why they did this, and if they plan on changing it back?

I'm pretty sure this has been in the book that way since at least I started umpiring in 2013. I seem to recall someone mentioning this difference at my initial training between ASA and USSSA. I just looked through my 2015 rule book and it is the same. Why would it need to be changed? Wouldn't the strike zone be bigger by saying highest shoulder rather than back shoulder? We all know that one knucklehead that would change his stance just to have the back shoulder as much lower than the front one as possible.

 

[ilyk2win]

Umpires don't call strikes on close pitches bc they don't want to hear the bitching and whining. What's worse? A guy standing 55' away giving you a stare, or a guy standing 3-4' away holding a bat with 10-15 of his "buddies" not much further away all collectively yelling and telling the umpire how to do their job and how terrible they are? Umpires can deny it all they want, but the bullying and intimidation is a factor....as a generalization. Watch ANY Conference game and see the stuff that's called a "ball" especially when the batter has 2 strikes on them (or 1 as USSSA likes to say).

 

[Redsfan]

In our league it all comes down to if the ump likes you or not. They love ringing up the mouthy guys on a close 3rd strike. I've always got along with the umps for the last 30+ years. Found out a long time ago when they like you you get the calls.

 

[jbo911]

I'm pretty sure this has been in the book that way since at least I started umpiring in 2013. I seem to recall someone mentioning this difference at my initial training between ASA and USSSA. I just looked through my 2015 rule book and it is the same. Why would it need to be changed? Wouldn't the strike zone be bigger by saying highest shoulder rather than back shoulder? We all know that one knucklehead that would change his stance just to have the back shoulder as much lower than the front one as possible.

To start with what i feel is the most important point you make, the strike zone is defined as something like the batters natural stance while even with the plate, so any contortions they make to lower that back shoulder should be ignored.

As for my main point, the ball crosses a batter on this trajectory (/). The main treason i assume you don't get the deep strike in utrip is because a ball with a bigger arc will go over that front shoulder (I) with this strike zone, but could drop into one that angles back from the front knee to back shoulder like this (\). You know how the ball is dropping in, but here are the two strike zones together N. The number of balls that pass over the front vertical line of that n, but cross through that diagonal are all called balls in utrip now it seems.

I understand that perception does not equal reality, but i also tend to watch games I'm waiting behind from the first base side so i can s how many balls really cross the batter but still get called deep.

I could also talk about the strike zone for hours, but I'm the only one so i always have a lot saved up when people are foolish enough to be drawn in. Lol

 

[jbo911]

Umpires don't call strikes on close pitches bc they don't want to hear the bitching and whining. What's worse? A guy standing 55' away giving you a stare, or a guy standing 3-4' away holding a bat with 10-15 of his "buddies" not much further away all collectively yelling and telling the umpire how to do their job and how terrible they are? Umpires can deny it all they want, but the bullying and intimidation is a factor....as a generalization. Watch ANY Conference game and see the stuff that's called a "ball" especially when the batter has 2 strikes on them (or 1 as USSSA likes to say).

Behavior is 100% a factor, were all human. Some see the attempts at intimidation and fight back against it, but i agree that most seem to succumb to it.

The thing that possess me if personally is how higher level or well known teams get preferential treatment. I rarely question umps in any sport on any level out of respect, but it's back fired on me 99 out of 100 times so I'm getting mouthier and chippier in my old age. I know it's easier to appease the mouths, but if you don't want the mouthing then reward the people that don't do it!

 

[EAJuggalo]

To start with what i feel is the most important point you make, the strike zone is defined as something like the batters natural stance while even with the plate, so any contortions they make to lower that back shoulder should be ignored.

As for my main point, the ball crosses a batter on this trajectory (/). The main treason i assume you don't get the deep strike in utrip is because a ball with a bigger arc will go over that front shoulder (I) with this strike zone, but could drop into one that angles back from the front knee to back shoulder like this (\). You know how the ball is dropping in, but here are the two strike zones together N. The number of balls that pass over the front vertical line of that n, but cross through that diagonal are all called balls in utrip now it seems.

I understand that perception does not equal reality, but i also tend to watch games I'm waiting behind from the first base side so i can s how many balls really cross the batter but still get called deep.

I could also talk about the strike zone for hours, but I'm the only one so i always have a lot saved up when people are foolish enough to be drawn in. Lol

You're thinking of the strike zone wrong, and many of the umpires do too. You're thinking of it as a line that the ball must cross between the front knee and the back shoulder. In reality the strike zone is three dimensional, the upper and lower limits of a strike zone are set by the height of the front knee and the height of the highest shoulder. Whether that shoulder is the front or the back is irrelevant, the strike zone is still the same height for the entire area above the plate. I call a higher zone than most guys, especially in the Conference, I will call a pitch a ball that lands two inches behind the plate if I believe it to be below the knee when it gets to the front of the plate. But I also give a little more on the top end and both corners than most guys. I know you've talked before about your issues with Stout and the ball landing outside the 17" of plate.

 

[jbo911]

You're thinking of the strike zone wrong, and many of the umpires do too. You're thinking of it as a line that the ball must cross between the front knee and the back shoulder. In reality the strike zone is three dimensional, the upper and lower limits of a strike zone are set by the height of the front knee and the height of the highest shoulder. Whether that shoulder is the front or the back is irrelevant, the strike zone is still the same height for the entire area above the plate. I call a higher zone than most guys, especially in the Conference, I will call a pitch a ball that lands two inches behind the plate if I believe it to be below the knee when it gets to the front of the plate. But I also give a little more on the top end and both corners than most guys. I know you've talked before about your issues with Stout and the ball landing outside the 17" of plate.

Yes, but I'm joking about stout. His zone is small, but it's so consistent i don't really mind it. When we get this to where i can feel comfortable complaining about his zone softball will be In a pretty good place already.

If you're saying that the strike zone is supposed to be height of the highest shoulder all the way back to the tip of the plate, you're correct. Most umps don't call that. Not even close. I know it's 3 dimensional, but was using the lines to more easily make my point. If I've interpreted the utrip strike zone correctly in this paragraph, they really need to reword the rule book because players and umps alike don't get it. I haven't read it in a while. Studying the strike zone as it's written is just a hobby. My team asks me to pitch to the one that's called, and they're never the same.