Utrip

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
Are we ready to acknowledge that with 240 bats and the pro m ball utrip has basically become asa from 18 years ago?
 

basilray

Active Member
I wasn't playing any softball back then (my college years), but the 2-piece Anarchy 240 someone on my team has is the best bat I swing right now
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
The Pro M balls are surprisingly crappy. Last weekend I played coed, and we ended up with a ZN classic M. I hit that ball harder and further than I've ever hit a Pro M. I'm no fan of classic M's either, but I've just been really disappointed with the performance of Pro Ms lately. They turn to pillows in the heat.

The only thing I don't like about the 240 bats is that they fail compression so fast.

IDK why USSSA went away from the classic +. That's a better ball for any weather conditions, and there's less incentive to use shaved/altered bats.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
Most of the newer 240s seen to fail faster. I don't know that it matters, they don't test around here till the championship game anyway.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
I brought out some niw 44/375s I've been storing inside since they were legal, and they're not much worse than the pro ms. Take away the tas, and the plain 44/375 are pretty similar.

The thing I find most interesting is that the early pro ms were reported to be golf balls. Now that they're available for use outside of the conference, they're garbage.
 

JN137

Member
The entire 240 ploy makes no sense to me. They made this big fuss about 220s going away only to allow them indefinitely in all USSSA play that isn't conference, which is 98% of the softball world.

If they really want to change the game, change the ball.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I brought out some niw 44/375s I've been storing inside since they were legal, and they're not much worse than the pro ms. Take away the tas, and the plain 44/375 are pretty similar.

The thing I find most interesting is that the early pro ms were reported to be golf balls. Now that they're available for use outside of the conference, they're garbage.

This is true. The first year they used Pro M's in Viera (2019) I played there and found a bunch. They performed great down there, and even better here in CO. Since then, it's been a pretty wide variation of performance with those balls. Everything from fairly decent to flat out horrible.

I guess the ball works OK for what it's supposed to do, which is limit HRs and batted ball speed with 240 bats. Pro Ms in the cold are still pretty hard. In the heat, Pro Ms get pretty bad. You'll feel like you're putting a good swing on a ball only to have it die out way short.

At this point, when the temps get above 90 I'd much rather hit C+s if I want any real distance.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
The entire 240 ploy makes no sense to me. They made this big fuss about 220s going away only to allow them indefinitely in all USSSA play that isn't conference, which is 98% of the softball world.

If they really want to change the game, change the ball.

If it were up to me I'd make the C+ the only available ball in USSSA other than stadium balls for use on large fields. The C+ ball works just fine, and I don't know why it never got more popular. It's way less weather sensitive than other balls, doesn't damage bats, and won't encourage as much bat shaving.

I also agree that USSSA allowing 220s indefinitely was dumb. I personally have enough 220s to easily last the rest of my life, and I know other people do too.
 

trippy1313

Starting Player
The Pro M balls are surprisingly crappy. Last weekend I played coed, and we ended up with a ZN classic M. I hit that ball harder and further than I've ever hit a Pro M. I'm no fan of classic M's either, but I've just been really disappointed with the performance of Pro Ms lately. They turn to pillows in the heat.

The only thing I don't like about the 240 bats is that they fail compression so fast.

IDK why USSSA went away from the classic +. That's a better ball for any weather conditions, and there's less incentive to use shaved/altered bats.
That's interesting. Not sure I've noticed playing a Pro M ball, but we play with Classic Ms, and they've seems a lot more dead this year and even late last year.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
If it were up to me I'd make the C+ the only available ball in USSSA other than stadium balls for use on large fields. The C+ ball works just fine, and I don't know why it never got more popular. It's way less weather sensitive than other balls, doesn't damage bats, and won't encourage as much bat shaving.

I also agree that USSSA allowing 220s indefinitely was dumb. I personally have enough 220s to easily last the rest of my life, and I know other people do too.
Same for me on the balls. They sound dead and actually bounce, so imo people used that to try and get rid of them. Sure, you hit the booming monster shots with your failing bat in spring when it's 55, but in the summer you can't hit crap. Yeah, your garbage infielders don't miss as many balls that hug the ground, until they don't. Then they miss the next five because of it finally jumping.

I only have 2-3 220s left, and I could easily make them last the rest of my career. I can always swing a failing 240 in leagues and tournaments that don't test.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
That's interesting. Not sure I've noticed playing a Pro M ball, but we play with Classic Ms, and they've seems a lot more dead this year and even late last year.
You'll never convince me that the gold dot extremes from a few years ago were ever legal. They out fly the new pro comp ones, zns, and other brands by fifty feet.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
You'll never convince me that the gold dot extremes from a few years ago were ever legal. They out fly the new pro comp ones, zns, and other brands by fifty feet.

Gold Dot Extremes are BY FAR the best classic Ms I've seen. When all other balls wilt and die those ones won't. I had a couple of the GSL Gold Dot Extremes that would hang with stadium balls in the heat, and felt super hard. You can instantly tell when you hit one vs. some other ball.
 

trippy1313

Starting Player
Aaah. I think our league uses the Dudley SY Classic M.

We've used the same model for many years, but I swear they are dead this last year.
 

rmp0012002

Addicted to Softballfans
The 240 bats seem pretty good but the consistency of the Pro M has been terrible. Even the seniors complained they were socks but considering they all come from overseas there’s really no oversight on them.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
The ProM's it all comes down to which batch. I've heard stories of major players going through the buckets before they play to separate out the "good batch" balls from the "bad batch." I was in KC over 4th of July weekend and had one game at 330 saturday between two B teams. I brought out a bucket that had been in the air conditioning all day, those two teams hit 10 HR between them in the first two innings and only hit one in the last 5.

Pro M's when they first came out were flying stupidly well, then they went to crap, now some are ok and some are horrible. Way too temp and humidity dependent. Hence why they fly like crap in Viera.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
The ProM's it all comes down to which batch. I've heard stories of major players going through the buckets before they play to separate out the "good batch" balls from the "bad batch." I was in KC over 4th of July weekend and had one game at 330 saturday between two B teams. I brought out a bucket that had been in the air conditioning all day, those two teams hit 10 HR between them in the first two innings and only hit one in the last 5.

Pro M's when they first came out were flying stupidly well, then they went to crap, now some are ok and some are horrible. Way too temp and humidity dependent. Hence why they fly like crap in Viera.

Agree. Pro M's are all over the place. So far, Tattoos are the best brand of Pro M I've tried, followed by Demarini. ZNs are probably the worst, and they are terribly inconsistent. We had a major tourny in Loveland last year, and it must have been a bad batch of balls. They flew horribly.

Viera has been hit or miss. 2019 the balls were great. Everything since has been worse. Still, it takes a Ruthian clout to hit a Pro M out of Viera, especially midday or if the wind is blowing in at all.

Even here in CO this year I've noticed some lousy performance out of Pro Ms.
 

trippy1313

Starting Player
This is probably a topic for a another thread... but I just don't get it....

Why do they say a bat with less compression hits the ball farther, because of the "trampoline effect," but a ball with more compression will go further?

Why is it that high compression on both wouldn't? I haven't seen a clear reason for it.

Maybe only one or the other can have high compression?
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is probably a topic for a another thread... but I just don't get it....

Why do they say a bat with less compression hits the ball farther, because of the "trampoline effect," but a ball with more compression will go further?

Why is it that high compression on both wouldn't? I haven't seen a clear reason for it.

Maybe only one or the other can have high compression?
You want a high compression ball, because it forces the barrel of the bat to compress for it's trampoline effect. This is for composites, if we're taking wood or singlewalls it's different, but you need a ball hard enough to drive itself into the bat to cause it to snap back launching the ball like a trampoline.

Compression with regard to performance isn't exact like a1 to 1 ratio, but generally lower compression means the bat will compress more, therefore having more energy to snap back this launching the ball more. Generally speaking.

Material, design, and other factors play a role. That's why some bats hit harder at 250 than others do at 230, but those instances are rare or minimal.

Balls make a difference too, and it's very convoluted, but I can discuss that too if you want. Compression is the main thing, but not like it was ten years ago.
 

robokill

Manager
Maybe only one or the other can have high compression?
There's some truth to that, like jbo said, a 52/300 should perform better than a 44/400 with a wood bat.

There's ranges to these things as well. If a bat has too low a compression it may not be able to "rebound" as well and performance won't be better than it was 200 swings ago. And if a ball is too hard it's performance can suffer as well (52/300s>40/525s in freezing temperatures).
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
In the cold, a 40/525 is going to be better than the 52 for the two or three swings the bat lasts lol. Other than that, you're exactly right. Too much of any of these things isn't a good thing.
 

trippy1313

Starting Player
Thanks guys. Those are easily the best descriptions I've seen to explain it. And it closely follows the only thing that made sense in my mind, but clears it up very well.
 

robokill

Manager
In the cold, a 40/525 is going to be better than the 52 for the two or three swings the bat lasts lol.
In my experience that isn't the case (off a tee), in ~30F weather. My bro science/feel says the 40/525 is turning into a 25/700, and the 52/300 is turning into a 40/525.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
In my experience that isn't the case (off a tee), in ~30F weather. My bro science/feel says the 40/525 is turning into a 25/700, and the 52/300 is turning into a 40/525.

.52 300s don't get super hard in the cold. I've hit them in very cold weather, and never had any bat damage. You can also tell by feel.

Anything .40 cor is going to be super hard in the cold, regardless of compression. .40 has no elasticity. They can turn mushy in the heat or rock hard in the cold, but they will never bounce. A .40 won't become any deader in the cold, it'll just get way harder.

Logic says that the deader the bat you're using (something like wood), the higher cor. ball you want. That's why .52 300s fly well with wood bats and classic Ms don't.

.52 300s are ideal BP balls. You can put almost unlimited swings on a bat with those balls and not have any significant durability concerns.

Honestly, I feel like the perfect compression for a softball would be something like .48 375. Something with some elasticity that isn't overly hard. I think the main beef with .52 300s is that they bounce too much. .50 300 might also work. The higher cor. a ball is, the less it'll be affected by temperature change.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
I've been saying I'd prefer a 47/375 to the classic m as soon as it became obvious the average player wouldn't accept a 52. Less temperature dependent, less bat damage, less body damage, and if that combo is too hot then go up to 265 bat compression. With the crappy quality of the pro ms , I don't see them being too hot.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
In my experience that isn't the case (off a tee), in ~30F weather. My bro science/feel says the 40/525 is turning into a 25/700, and the 52/300 is turning into a 40/525.
That may be your bat then. As tw said, it'll be crazy hard, and you may just be reaching that over flexing stage we mentioned being an outlier earlier. It's much less of an outlier when hitting a croquet ball. Lol
 

ilyk2win

Addicted to Softballfans
My guess is USSSA doesn't use the C+ bc it's too similar to the USA/ASA ball and they want to be distinguished from that. They'll just say "bc it's not what the players want" though.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
My guess is USSSA doesn't use the C+ bc it's too similar to the USA/ASA ball and they want to be distinguished from that. They'll just say "bc it's not what the players want" though.

I'll say one thing... if USSSA just bucked up and used decent C+s in Viera for worlds 1 time they'd see better games and more HRs. I've hit C+s in FL, and they fly drastically better in that heat/humidity than Pro Ms or classic Ms.

I think with C+s people just assume that because the ball is soft that it won't fly. That isn't at all true. I'm not saying all C+s are great balls, but in most weather conditions they'll fly as far or further than Pro Ms or classic Ms.

I also wouldn't be opposed to bumping the minimum bat compression up to 265 (as mentioned earlier) as long as bat manufacturers can create a bat that will hold compression for a while without failing. 265 is still a decent bat, but it'll separate the men from the boys as far as HR hitting is concerned.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
My guess is USSSA doesn't use the C+ bc it's too similar to the USA/ASA ball and they want to be distinguished from that. They'll just say "bc it's not what the players want" though.
100% this is what I think. They are the association that says you walk on three balls and strike out on two instead of saying you start 1-1 like everyone else.

They're like those obstinate teens that think pretending to not like popular things makes them edgy or unique.
 
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