USSSA Weird play at home

JJR12

Addicted to Softballfans
Here is the exact rule in ASA (USSSA leaves too much to the imagination):
2008 Rules Supplement 1L:


I love the ASA rulebook, they make things abundantly clear on a lot of tricky situations.

Yes and stepping on the bag with the ball in your possession is a Live ball appeal... The same thing happens when a runner fails to tag up on a caught fly ball... Throwing the ball to the base and touching the base while in possession with the ball before the runner returns is a Live ball appeal play...
 

Gulf Coast Blue

Addicted to Softballfans
Yes and stepping on the bag with the ball in your possession is a Live ball appeal... The same thing happens when a runner fails to tag up on a caught fly ball... Throwing the ball to the base and touching the base while in possession with the ball before the runner returns is a Live ball appeal play...

Holy Cow.....you have been given the rule right out of the book........and you still will not believe it............DONE!!

Joel
 
Yes and stepping on the bag with the ball in your possession is a Live ball appeal... The same thing happens when a runner fails to tag up on a caught fly ball... Throwing the ball to the base and touching the base while in possession with the ball before the runner returns is a Live ball appeal play...


Holy Cow.....you have been given the rule right out of the book........and you still will not believe it............DONE!!

Joel

Then what is the proper live ball appeal??

Stating out loud to the umpire......"the runner missed the base" and stomping on the base or tagging the runner.........it must be unmistakeable........

How hard is that...?

Joel

ok so your saying in this instant you have to yell to the ump for a live ball appeal,mmm don't see it happening on line drives,so why should it happen on a fly ball.
 

JJR12

Addicted to Softballfans
Stating out loud to the umpire......"the runner missed the base" and stomping on the base or tagging the runner.........it must be unmistakeable........

How hard is that...?

Joel

Then on fly balls or line drives that are caught and when the runner didn't tag up, why is it that you don't have to say "The runner didn't tag up??" Since that is a live ball appeal play??

Using the phrase that the runner missed the base is used in a dead ball appeal.
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
Then on fly balls or line drives that are caught and when the runner didn't tag up, why is it that you don't have to say "The runner didn't tag up??" Since that is a live ball appeal play??

Using the phrase that the runner missed the base is used in a dead ball appeal.

There is a concept taught to umpires that any appeal must be an unmistakable appeal. The defense needs to make it clear to the umpire just what exactly it is they're appealing.

When a line drive or fly ball is caught and a runner leaves his base too soon, the defense making an immediate throw and tag of the base is considered to be an obvious (ie: unmistakable) appeal. Thus, no verbal appeal is needed.

If the runner left early and there were intervening plays on that, or other runners, a throw to tag the base left too soon at might not be an obvious appeal. The umpire needs to know what exactly is being appealed and which runner is being appealed. A verbal statement may be required to make the intent obvious (such as, "#14 left early on the catch").

Another concept is that accidental appeals are not to be ruled upon.

Suppose a runner left second base early on a catch by an outfielder. No immediate appeal is made, there are other throws made and the ball eventually winds up in the shortstop's possession. The SS is walking the ball toward another runner off his base and just happens to accidently brush his foot across second base.

The appeal is not obvious and a verbal statement would need to be made to make the appeal valid.

First base is treated a little bit differently than other bases due to the nature of plays at that base. Runners may overrun the base and return without liability to be put out, so long as no attempt toward second base is made.

When the batter-runner beats the throw, but misses the base, the defense needs to make it obvious they're appealling the missed base before the runner returns and touches it. The verbal appeal serves to make it obvious.

Without the verbal element of this appeal, the defense doesn't make it clear that they even saw the missed base. The ball is being thrown/fielded to first as part of the normal play, so the fact that the defense has the ball and is touching the base isn't an obvious, unmistakable appeal. In this case, it falls more under the category of an "accidental" appeal.

Simply tagging the runner isn't sufficient because it wouldn't be clear if the defense is attempting to tag the runner because they think he tried to advance to second base or as part of a missed base appeal. So, a tag alone isn't considered unmistakable either.

You might not find any of these concepts in the rule book, but they do appear in umpire manuals and they are taught in advanced classes and training. But this play is one that is well documented in training literature and this is how umpires are taught to handle it.
 
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mmm i was once told by an ump(a veteran one) that touching the base on a early leave of the base was an out no matter when it was done as long as it was before a time out was called,example he gave(actually something he saw watching new umps).runner on 2b,leaves before fly ball touched/caught by fielder,ball beats him to 3rd so he retreats back to 2b to be caught in a pickle,a couple of throws later(between,3b,SS,2b)the ball ends up at 2nd base with the fielder standing on it(2b) and the runner never having tagged legally,with that he says the runner should of been declared out then.
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
mmm i was once told by an ump(a veteran one) that touching the base on a early leave of the base was an out no matter when it was done as long as it was before a time out was called,example he gave(actually something he saw watching new umps).runner on 2b,leaves before fly ball touched/caught by fielder,ball beats him to 3rd so he retreats back to 2b to be caught in a pickle,a couple of throws later(between,3b,SS,2b)the ball ends up at 2nd base with the fielder standing on it(2b) and the runner never having tagged legally,with that he says the runner should of been declared out then.

Well, if this was an ASA, NFHS, NCAA, ISF game and the defender offered no indication his purpose of touching the base while holding the ball was to appeal the runner leaving early, the umpire, was wrong.
 
why,if the runner has never tagged up,once the ball reaches the base with it being touched,runner should be declared out no matter.never will be able to understand why not IMO.now i'll do it the way you all are suggesting it needs to be done,just don't get it when it should be automatic IMO.can't see why an assoc made this type of rule without some thought about it.
am surprised that you umps haven't chimed in on getting it changed so that you can get more outs,as we all know you like to get them outs rang up to end the game quicker. :eek::eek::p:D
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
why,if the runner has never tagged up,once the ball reaches the base with it being touched,runner should be declared out no matter.never will be able to understand why not IMO.now i'll do it the way you all are suggesting it needs to be done,just don't get it when it should be automatic IMO.can't see why an assoc made this type of rule without some thought about it.

But they did put some thought into it!

What they decided was that when the defense makes an appeal it has to be obvious what it is they're appealing and that accidental appeals aren't accepted.

Some appeals, by their very nature, are obvious. Both teams, the umpire and your grandma in the bleachers can tell when a team is obviously trying to double up a runner who left early on a catch.

Others aren't so obvious and those are the ones that require some verbal statement of what exactly is being appealed. For example, in your sample play, a fielder just happens to touch a base after several throws in a rundown and while in the act of trying to execute an unrelated tag. It isn't obvious that the defense even saw the runner leave early, let alone obvious that whatever they're doing is some sort of an appeal. If they knew he left early, why would they being going through all of the motions of getting in a rundown?

Accepting an "accidental" appeal tips the balance too far in the defense's favor. On some plays it isn't apparent that they even saw the baserunning violation. Having the umpire jump in and call the out, without an obvious appeal, gives the defense an advantage not intended by the rules.
 
don't understand the advantage the defense would be getting,the offense is trying for the same advantage by leaving early.
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
don't understand the advantage the defense would be getting,the offense is trying for the same advantage by leaving early.

Last time. The defense is getting an advantage for getting an out they were not smart enough to earn and IT'S THE RULE under which you voluntarily agreed to play.
 

softballjunky_2

Addicted to Softballfans
Wow

don't understand the advantage the defense would be getting,the offense is trying for the same advantage by leaving early.

You hve two diffrent secenario's here.

The later is, you must taggup on a fly ball, if the runner leaves early and does not retag, the defensive team has two options to make the out.
Option 1 throw the ball while still live to second base for the out, it is not a live appeal play it is a timming play, the player must retag and can be put out with out an appeal, Option 2 make an appropriate dead ball appeal for the out.

The first Seceario.
The player never occupied the plate, so he can return to 3rd base without having to touch home. The running bases in revers order is assuming that the runner has occupied the preceding base. in this case he never occupid home plate, in which he would not have to retouch to return to 3rd. The appel play comes in effect when the player continues to the next base in which it is assumed he touched the preceeding base. Exp. it the runner runs from 1st to 3rd and stops thier, in the process he missed second base you would have to appeal that he missed second base once the play is dead. If the player relised he missed the base he would have to retouch 3rd since he had already occupied the 3rd base. now if he relized that he missed the 2nd base and stoped beside 3rd and never touched(occuping) 3rd base, all he has to do is run back to second to occupie that base.

since the runner did not continue to the dougout and every one in the park new he missed the plat it is not assumed he touched it. he retruned to his legally occupid base. he is safe a third. the Ump blew the call. this is a play you will probly never see again the rest or your playing days.
 

softballjunky_2

Addicted to Softballfans
Dont know what rule book you are reading

It is not a force play....it is an appeal. Look in ASA book POE under appeals. This play is specifically covered. Once the runner passes first....even though they have missed it....they are considered to have touched it and are safe unless properly appealled. This rule is the same in all SB and BB rule sets. You not knowing this universal rule shows that you should not be commenting in the Rules Forum.

Joel

BB rules this is a force play and the runner is out. The ball beat the runner to the bag becaucse he never touched the 1st. the only way it becomes and appeal play is if the runner advaces to the 2nd and the ball never made it to first base, due to over throw or what ever the case. the batter/runner must reach 1st base by tagging the base or is at jeoprady of being put out. Your quote is vague. you dont explain what the situtation is that this is explaning. Appeals is usaully in a case where a runner has advaced to another bag, not just over running a bag. Dont just make it sound the way you want it. The POE book is written to help umpires understand situation base of off an actully play. this play at 1st on a force out is not an appeal. the runner is out or safe on a force, if he misses the base and the ball reaches the base before the runner tags 1st it is an out PERIOD. no appeal on a force out.

this is why people dont understand the rules of ASA. the put stuff in the rules to make thangs simple but in stead it confuses the crap out of people. There is no reason for a play at 1st to be and appeal play if the runner missed the bag and the ball arrives about the same time it is an out. this should no way be an appeal play.
 
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hookumsnivy

Addicted to Softballfans
BB rules this is a force play and the runner is out. The ball beat the runner to the bag becaucse he never touched the 1st. the only way it becomes and appeal play is if the runner advaces to the 2nd and the ball never made it to first base, due to over throw or what ever the case. the batter/runner must reach 1st base by tagging the base or is at jeoprady of being put out. Your quote is vague. you dont explain what the situtation is that this is explaning. Appeals is usaully in a case where a runner has advaced to another bag, not just over running a bag. Dont just make it sound the way you want it. The POE book is written to help umpires understand situation base of off an actully play. this play at 1st on a force out is not an appeal. the runner is out or safe on a force, if he misses the base and the ball reaches the base before the runner tags 1st it is an out PERIOD. no appeal on a force out.

First off, this is NOT BASEBALL! I'm not sure what the baseball rules say, and quite frankly it does not matter.

Check out this post:
http://forums.softballfans.com/showpost.php?p=11798066&postcount=57

The rule book clearly defines this situation in ASA and says it is an APPEAL play.
 

Gulf Coast Blue

Addicted to Softballfans
BB rules this is a force play and the runner is out. The ball beat the runner to the bag becaucse he never touched the 1st. the only way it becomes and appeal play is if the runner advaces to the 2nd and the ball never made it to first base, due to over throw or what ever the case. the batter/runner must reach 1st base by tagging the base or is at jeoprady of being put out. Your quote is vague. you dont explain what the situtation is that this is explaning. Appeals is usaully in a case where a runner has advaced to another bag, not just over running a bag. Dont just make it sound the way you want it. The POE book is written to help umpires understand situation base of off an actully play. this play at 1st on a force out is not an appeal. the runner is out or safe on a force, if he misses the base and the ball reaches the base before the runner tags 1st it is an out PERIOD. no appeal on a force out.

this is why people dont understand the rules of ASA. the put stuff in the rules to make thangs simple but in stead it confuses the crap out of people. There is no reason for a play at 1st to be and appeal play if the runner missed the bag and the ball arrives about the same time it is an out. this should no way be an appeal play.


This play is the same in OBR (Official Baseball Rules) as it is covered under ASA. The runner is not out unless appealed for having missed the base. Another wrong answer.......sorry Charlie........

Joel
 
Last time. The defense is getting an advantage for getting an out they were not smart enough to earn and IT'S THE RULE under which you voluntarily agreed to play.

so its ok for the offense to get away with something but not the defense:rolleyes:

oh there has been plenty of times i have had a ball thrown to or touch the base myself without ever indicating to the ump that it was for and got the out for not tagging up by the runner.
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
so its ok for the offense to get away with something but not the defense:rolleyes:

oh there has been plenty of times i have had a ball thrown to or touch the base myself without ever indicating to the ump that it was for and got the out for not tagging up by the runner.

Wow, you really are dense. Maybe you should try wearing a helmet.
 
Wow, you really are dense. Maybe you should try wearing a helmet.

and why is it you need to be an azzhat,i'm just stating an opinion about the rule and not the rule.also am telling you what i have done on the field,not any supposedly done stuff,actually done it and got the call.so why is it you feel the need to try and make yourself look like the know it all,by trying to demean someone.:rolleyes:
 

softballjunky_2

Addicted to Softballfans
Dont know where you call

This play is the same in OBR (Official Baseball Rules) as it is covered under ASA. The runner is not out unless appealed for having missed the base. Another wrong answer.......sorry Charlie........

Joel

been calling baseball for over 21 years and everyone i call with from youth to Minor league have said this is not an appeal play unless the ball becomes dead. If the runner misses the base in baseball then returns to it he is safe, the ball is never dead. Usssa as far as I know in the past 6 yrs of calling, we have never been tought this is an appeal play. Just went throught the 2010 baseball rule book and nowhere does it say this is an appeal play or even cover if the runner misses 1st base. It however does cover if the runner overruns or over slides first base. this covers an appeal play if the runner does not return to the base.

I belive you are reading the rules and making them sound the way you belive the to be. Please point me to the rule in Major League rule book that covers this rule. If I am wrong, I will admite it, and would love to have the rule infront of me so I can show it to my partners.
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
been calling baseball for over 21 years and everyone i call with from youth to Minor league have said this is not an appeal play unless the ball becomes dead. If the runner misses the base in baseball then returns to it he is safe, the ball is never dead. Usssa as far as I know in the past 6 yrs of calling, we have never been tought this is an appeal play. Just went throught the 2010 baseball rule book and nowhere does it say this is an appeal play or even cover if the runner misses 1st base. It however does cover if the runner overruns or over slides first base. this covers an appeal play if the runner does not return to the base.

I belive you are reading the rules and making them sound the way you belive the to be. Please point me to the rule in Major League rule book that covers this rule. If I am wrong, I will admite it, and would love to have the rule infront of me so I can show it to my partners.

And I worked baseball, from LL to college from '66 to '88 and it means absolutely nothing in softball. I've been working ASA, ISF, NFHS and a little college softball for 23 years now and can tell you with absolute certainty, baseball is NOT the same game and the rules are different. While some may be applicable, standing on them for support in a softball game will kill your integrity in any discussion.
 

olliegj

Addicted to Softballfans
been calling baseball for over 21 years and everyone i call with from youth to Minor league have said this is not an appeal play unless the ball becomes dead. If the runner misses the base in baseball then returns to it he is safe, the ball is never dead. Usssa as far as I know in the past 6 yrs of calling, we have never been tought this is an appeal play. Just went throught the 2010 baseball rule book and nowhere does it say this is an appeal play or even cover if the runner misses 1st base. It however does cover if the runner overruns or over slides first base. this covers an appeal play if the runner does not return to the base.
QUOTE]

A similar play happened in the College Baseball World Series a few years ago. There was a close play where the pitcher was covering first. Pitcher, runner, and ball all got in the area at the same time, but nobody touched the base. The umpire called nothing. Once the runner walked back, and touched first, the umpire called safe. If the runner was assumed safe, the umpire would have called safe right away.
 

hookumsnivy

Addicted to Softballfans
A similar play happened in the College Baseball World Series a few years ago. There was a close play where the pitcher was covering first. Pitcher, runner, and ball all got in the area at the same time, but nobody touched the base. The umpire called nothing. Once the runner walked back, and touched first, the umpire called safe. If the runner was assumed safe, the umpire would have called safe right away.

Again, that's baseball. Baseball and Softball have a number of different rules.
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
been calling baseball for over 21 years and everyone i call with from youth to Minor league have said this is not an appeal play unless the ball becomes dead.

Some of those guys who said this had to be wrong. That this is "not an appeal play unless the ball becomes dead" doesn't make sense.

The only baseball rule set that allows dead ball appeals is high school baseball. So all those "youth" and "minor league" umpires that told you this could be an appeal after a dead ball were wrong.

If the runner misses the base in baseball then returns to it he is safe, the ball is never dead.

If the runner misses the base, then returns to it- without a proper appeal being executed- then he is safe, in either baseball or softball.

But if the appeal is properly executed, he's out.

Just went throught the 2010 baseball rule book and nowhere does it say this is an appeal play or even cover if the runner misses 1st base...Please point me to the rule in Major League rule book that covers this rule.

You must have missed this one:

7.10: Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when- (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

The rule clearly states that missing a base is an appeal play. The rule doesn't specifically say anything about missing first base because this applies to all bases.

I belive you are reading the rules and making them sound the way you belive the to be.

No, we're reading rules exactly as they appear and giving you case plays exactly as they have been written and interpreted.
 

ImminentDanger

Up and Over
A few further comments (based on what I believe) regarding 'assumed safe' and 'defensive appeal'....

There is a general concept involved here that the Umpire should not be responsible for declaring the missed base, either by ruling safe or out... I'm not sure, but this concept may have changed in the past from actually being the Umpire's responsibility to now being the defense's responsibility to declare...

In any case, currently, as the rules are written, 'missed bases' and 'left early' are both situations that the Umpire is not supposed to declare because he does not know whether the defense saw the infraction or not... it is the responsibility of the defense to monitor the runner and make an appeal in either case to the umpire who (hopefully) was also watching that occurence... The umpire is not to make a ruling on the infraction UNTIL the defense makes an appeal...

Now here's where the 'assumed safe' comes into play... It would make absolutely no sense for the Umpire to simply stand there forever not making any call.... so, after a brief period to allow the defense to make such an appeal, the Umpire eventually 'assumes the runner is safe' and, where appropriate, make such a call so that the game may proceed...

The 'assumed safe' can be overridden if the defense still makes their appeal within the framework allowed, even after the Umpire's call...

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

However, I'm still uncertain where the 'assumed to have legally acquired the base, simply by passing close to the base' has come into the evaluations of the 'touching the bases in the proper order' rules... I've not seen any rules that state or imply this assumption...

Nor have I seen the 'assumed to be safe' used in any situation where it is obvious to everyone that the runner DID NOT TOUCH THE BASE and there is an actual play on the runner as such...

%%%
 
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Gulf Coast Blue

Addicted to Softballfans
been calling baseball for over 21 years and everyone i call with from youth to Minor league have said this is not an appeal play unless the ball becomes dead. If the runner misses the base in baseball then returns to it he is safe, the ball is never dead. Usssa as far as I know in the past 6 yrs of calling, we have never been tought this is an appeal play. Just went throught the 2010 baseball rule book and nowhere does it say this is an appeal play or even cover if the runner misses 1st base. It however does cover if the runner overruns or over slides first base. this covers an appeal play if the runner does not return to the base.

I belive you are reading the rules and making them sound the way you belive the to be. Please point me to the rule in Major League rule book that covers this rule. If I am wrong, I will admite it, and would love to have the rule infront of me so I can show it to my partners.

Ok....here you go.

From OBR rules 7.10 Comments
An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute an appeal.

See also 7.08(k)

From the 2009 PBUC (Professional Baseball Umpires Corp.) Manual

8. Section 3.4 - Appeal Plays - Approved Rulings - Batter runner missing first base- "BR hits a ground ball and beats the play at first base but misses the bag. Ruling: The proper mechanic if to call the BR "Safe," indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base before the runner returns to first base, the BR would be declared out. Note also OBR 7.08(k) Casebook Comment and Section 3.3."

Joel

Sorry for posting the BB rule in this.....but it was asked for so I did.
 
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BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
However, I'm still uncertain where the 'assumed to have legally acquired the base, simply by passing close to the base' has come into the evaluations of the 'touching the bases in the proper order' rules... I've not seen any rules that state or imply this assumption...

We're getting into baseball and softball, both of which have dozens of sanctioning bodies and thus dozens of different rule books. Some of them make this quite clear in their rules, others infer this through other rules and some clarify this point in case books or interpretive literature.

An example of one rule set that spells it out plain as day is ASA. Rule 8-3-B flat out says "When a runner passes a base, the runner is considered to have touched that base".

Can't get any more "black and white" than that!

For rule sets that don't spell it out as explicitly as that, this can be infered from their appeal rules. We can agree that a runner who misses a base isn't called out for missing it until it's appealed- right? If he's not out, he is...safe. And if he's considered to be safe, that is the same result as if he had actually touched the base- that is, he is assumed to have touched it.
 

olliegj

Addicted to Softballfans
BretMan, if I am reading your posts correctly, you are saying the runner in the OP should be safe, since the defense did not make it clear what they were appealing (at least not as stated in the OP). The umpire was wrong to just call him out, when tagged. If it the defense knew what they were appealing, they would have just stayed at home, stepped on the plate, and announced their appeal.
 
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