USSSA what is the call???

[jim303]

Yesterday in a game I seen this play:

1 out,
runners on 1st and 3rd,
batter hits a pop up to right center,
right center catches the ball,
runner on 3rd tags,
runner on 1st does not tag, but he takes of running around the bases like there is two outs,
right center throws to 1st base for 3 outs.

My Question is does the runner tagging from 3rd base score?

 

[reuben]

I think as long as he crossed the plate before the out was made he would have scored. But I'm no umpire

 

[BretMan]

If the runner from third crossed the plate BEFORE the third out was made on the appeal- the run scores.

If the runner from third crossed the plate AFTER the third out was made on the appeal- the run does not score.

And before anybody asks...the fielder holding the ball and touching first base is NOT a force out. It is an appeal play- totally different rule and ruling.

 

[Helton17]

Is it considered an appeal play if the runner is called out initially as the force out? It sounds like there was no appeal to make, but that it was a blatant out.

 

[Pylon #00]

It is a timing play. If the runner from 3rd scored before the out at first was recorded, the run scores.

 

[SevenBizzos]

It's that time of year again. This play seems to happen a lot.

 

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Yesterday in a game I seen this play:

1 out,
runners on 1st and 3rd,
batter hits a pop up to right center,
right center catches the ball,
runner on 3rd tags,
runner on 1st does not tag, but he takes of running around the bases like there is two outs,
right center throws to 1st base for 3 outs.

My Question is does the runner tagging from 3rd base score?

I don't know why a runner would take of......maybe off....

Bret already gave the answer......BTW.....I will be in Co. next month and looking forward to it.....My first time taking an extended trip to the NW.

I have been in Utah, Co., and Washington for a short time.......but never for long......at least twelve states.....

Joel

 

[spenc07]

Oh this play is one of my favorite plays to witness. The umpire always seems to have difficulty with it, even though it is a pretty simple call to make.

 

[jsam21238]

Is it considered an appeal play if the runner is called out initially as the force out? It sounds like there was no appeal to make, but that it was a blatant out.

It is a live ball appeal... Not a force play. Just because a runner isn't tagged doesn't make it a force out.

 

[BretMan]

Is it considered an appeal play if the runner is called out initially as the force out? It sounds like there was no appeal to make, but that it was a blatant out.

Like I said...this isn't a force out. You can NEVER have a force out at any base when the batter-runner is put out before safely reaching first base.

Throwing the ball to a fielder, who then touches the base that was left too soon, is in itself the appeal.

 

[hinzy]

Like I said...this isn't a force out. You can NEVER have a force out at any base when the batter-runner is put out before safely reaching first base.

Throwing the ball to a fielder, who then touches the base that was left too soon, is in itself the appeal.

I'm not questioning the answer, I just have a follow up question.

If you can NEVER have a force out after a caught fly ball, why is this wording in the rulebook?

Rule 8
Sec. 5 - Base runners our out under the following circumstances

T. When a base runner leaves his base to advance to the next base before a fly ball has been touched or touches some object, provided that if the fly ball was caught and returned to a fielder and legally held on the base left, or if a fielder touches the runner witht he ball before the runner returns to retouch his original base.

EFFECT Sec. 5. S-T
These are appeal plays and the defensive team ..... blah blah blah

3. If, the appealed out is the THIRD OUT, and is the result of a force out, neither the preceding nor following runners shall score

 

[EsqUmp]

3. If, the appealed out is the THIRD OUT, and is the result of a force out, neither the preceding nor following runners shall score

You have to go down to 8-5-Effect S & T - 5


On any appealed play not a force out, all runners in advance of runner
being appealed out who touch home plate legally before actual physical com-
pletion of the THIRD APPEALED OUT in any inning, shall be counted.
Succeeding runners cannot score.

 

[hinzy]

You have to go down to 8-5-Effect S & T - 5


On any appealed play not a force out, all runners in advance of runner
being appealed out who touch home plate legally before actual physical com-
pletion of the THIRD APPEALED OUT in any inning, shall be counted.
Succeeding runners cannot score.

That's not my question dummy.... my question is, If there is NEVER a force out in that situation, why distinguish between "appeal play with a force out" and "appeal play not a force out"???

 

[NCASAUmp]

That's not my question dummy.... my question is, If there is NEVER a force out in that situation, why distinguish between "appeal play with a force out" and "appeal play not a force out"???

I believe it has more to do with S than it does with T. Perhaps on an obstruction call or an overthrow where the runner somehow misses a base.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Because appealing a missed base is still an appeal play but would be a could be still be a force as well. To use a convoluted example, runners on first and second with two outs, double to the outfield. If the runner on second base misses third then the runner that was on first comes in to score, an appeal could be made that the runner on second missed third. If the appeal is upheld and the runner declared out the runner that started on first would not score either.

Those five clauses in the rule apply to all 20+ instances in which the batter is out.

 

[hinzy]

I believe it has more to do with S than it does with T. Perhaps on an obstruction call or an overthrow where the runner somehow misses a base.

S. only talks about returning to the base after a dead ball situation....

How would their possibly be a "force out"?

 

[EAJuggalo]

Those five clauses in the rule apply to all 20+ instances in which the batter is out.

As posted above.

 

[NCASAUmp]

S. only talks about returning to the base after a dead ball situation....

How would their possibly be a "force out"?

Tossing this out there, but I'm no U-Trip expert...

R1 on 3rd base, R2 on 1st base, 2 outs, ball hit to the outfield. R1 scores. R2 approaches 2nd, but is knocked down by the second baseman standing in his way (ball nowhere near them). R2 gets up, never touches 2nd, and continues on to 3rd. The defense relays it to the shortstop, who overthrows the ball out of play. R2 goes home, then into the dugout.

R2 should have returned to 2nd base to touch it properly, despite the obstruction. However, he didn't. As such, a valid appeal would call R2 out, and by rule, this would be a force out that negates both R1 and R2 from scoring.

 

[hinzy]

Tossing this out there, but I'm no U-Trip expert...

R1 on 3rd base, R2 on 1st base, 2 outs, ball hit to the outfield. R1 scores. R2 approaches 2nd, but is knocked down by the second baseman standing in his way (ball nowhere near them). R2 gets up, never touches 2nd, and continues on to 3rd. The defense relays it to the shortstop, who overthrows the ball out of play. R2 goes home, then into the dugout.

R2 should have returned to 2nd base to touch it properly, despite the obstruction. However, he didn't. As such, a valid appeal would call R2 out, and by rule, this would be a force out that negates both R1 and R2 from scoring.

It was my misunderstanding of the structure... since notes 1-5 were listed under the EFFECT S-T, I thought 1-5 were only referring to S-T and not every other rule or possible scenario.

 

[Helton17]

You have to go down to 8-5-Effect S & T - 5


On any appealed play not a force out, all runners in advance of runner
being appealed out who touch home plate legally before actual physical com-
pletion of the THIRD APPEALED OUT in any inning, shall be counted.
Succeeding runners cannot score.

So it is considered an appeal play even before the ball is deemed dead? If the OFer throws the ball to first to make the last out of the inning because he did not tag, but the runner crosses the plate first, he is safe?

Ive never seen it called that way.

 

[Gulf Coast Blue]

So it is considered an appeal play even before the ball is deemed dead? If the OFer throws the ball to first to make the last out of the inning because he did not tag, but the runner crosses the plate first, he is safe?

Ive never seen it called that way.

How can it be a force play if the batter/runner is out?

Answer that and we can maybe have a discussion.

Joel

 

[EsqUmp]

How can it be a force play if the batter/runner is out?

Answer that and we can maybe have a discussion.

Joel

Pay attention. It's a live ball appeal on the runner from first base not tagging; not a play on the BR.

If you spent more time reading the contents and purpose of the post rather than looking to correct everyone's grammar and spelling, you would see that.


To answer your question, yes. Whether it is a dead ball appeal when all is said and done or a live ball appeal (stepping on the base left too early or tagging the runner in violation), the run from third base would score.

 

[jsam21238]

Pay attention. It's a live ball appeal on the runner from first base not tagging; not a play on the BR.

If you spent more time reading the contents and purpose of the post rather than looking to correct everyone's grammar and spelling, you would see that.


To answer your question, yes. Whether it is a dead ball appeal when all is said and done or a live ball appeal (stepping on the base left too early or tagging the runner in violation), the run from third base would score.

What he was saying is that if the batter runner is out.... How can there be a force out? There can't because there is no one to force the runners to advance.

If you were so worried about how he responds to questions you would have noticed what he was doing.

 

[jsam21238]

So it is considered an appeal play even before the ball is deemed dead? If the OFer throws the ball to first to make the last out of the inning because he did not tag, but the runner crosses the plate first, he is safe?

Ive never seen it called that way.

Yes it is a live ball appeal. You would be suprised how many umpires don't know that. Even more players don't know it either. I had an umpire in a league tell me after a play like this,"I've been umpiring for 25 years and that has always been a force out because he didn't tag him". I politely let him know he has been calling it wrong for 25 years and that he should pick up and read a case book.

 

[EsqUmp]

What he was saying is that if the batter runner is out.... How can there be a force out? There can't because there is no one to force the runners to advance.

If you were so worried about how he responds to questions you would have noticed what he was doing.

He was blatantly misquoting what someone said. He quotes a statement that does not even allude to a force play. Yet, he brings up a force play.

Go back up and actually read the entire post.

 

[jsam21238]

So it is considered an appeal play even before the ball is deemed dead? If the OFer throws the ball to first to make the last out of the inning because he did not tag, but the runner crosses the plate first, he is safe?

Ive never seen it called that way.

How can it be a force play if the batter/runner is out?

Answer that and we can maybe have a discussion.

Joel

Helton is inferring that it is a force play because "he has never seen it called that way"

 

[Helton17]

Helton is inferring that it is a force play because "he has never seen it called that way"

Yeah...in all my years of playing, Ive never seen it called this way. Glad I know the actual rule now.

Now...where to print it out so I can educate my local umpires??