Other You make the call

[farmerG]

this happened to us in coed last night.

play at the plate. catcher misses the tag on the runner, runner steps on the plate ump signals safe calls time, then the catcher walks over to the runner and tags him, ump then calls the runner out and says that the runner tuched the black mat not the plate. so whats the right call? out or safe?

 

[RodeoClown]

Im guessing this is in Wisconsin, isnt it ??

 

[chiefgator]

If the Ump felt that the catcher was making a dead ball appeal.... the runner is out.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Well, it sounds like you already have the call. What's confusing you is the mechanic or the procedure.

A runner missing any base (including home plate) is an appeal play. Anytime a runner misses home plate, we're taught to hesitate slightly to allow the defense and offense to complete the play, then call safe. The hesitation is supposed to be just enough so that it doesn't tip off either side that there's a potential appeal play.

That's why the umpire initially called "safe." S/He did what s/he was supposed to do.

The subsequent "out" call was when the defense then tagged the runner on an appeal. Now, I'm not sure what all was said by the defense, but it's up to the defense to make it clear to the umpire both who and what they are appealing. I have no way of telling what, if anything, was said by the defense. However, assuming it was clear to the umpire that the defense was making an appeal, the out call would be correct if, in the judgment of the umpire, the runner did miss the plate.

Now, there may be a million different local rules that may change all of the above, and I can't speak to those. However, that's as good as I can get you from here.

 

[VF500Racer]

Thank goodness we don't have to deal w/ the mat yet in TX

 

[BretMan]

There's obviously some confusion in your description.

"...runner steps on the plate ump signals safe..."

If the runner really stepped on the plate, the runner is safe. Nothing after that point can change the fact- no tag, or appeal, or complaining or anything else.

Now, if the catcher missed the tag AND the runner missed the plate, here's what should happen:

- The umpire should NOT call time! There is still a continuation of the play going on. The runner can still come back and touch the plate to correct the miss. The defense can still tag the runner before he scrambles back, or make a live ball appeal of the missed base.

- Once the tag and base is missed, the umpire should pause to see if either of the above things might happen. If neither is happening, then signal safe. Just like on any other base, when the base is passed it is assumed to have been touched until appealed otherwise. The "safe" signal indicates that the initial tag attempt failed.

- Keep the ball live at least until the runner enters the dugout/dead-ball area. At that point, the runner loses the right to come back and re-touch home. Up until that point, you still might have the runner coming back to re-touch, the defense trying to tag him before he does or the defense making a live-ball appeal of the miss.

- Once the runner leaves the field, the defense can still execute an appeal up until the next pitch is thrown. If they do, the runner is out and the run doesn't count. If they don't, the runner isn't out and run counts.

 

[NCASAUmp]

There's obviously some confusion in your description.

"...runner steps on the plate ump signals safe..."

If the runner really stepped on the plate, the runner is safe. Nothing after that point can change the fact- no tag, or appeal, or complaining or anything else.

Now, if the catcher missed the tag AND the runner missed the plate, here's what should happen:

- The umpire should NOT call time! There is still a continuation of the play going on. The runner can still come back and touch the plate to correct the miss. The defense can still tag the runner before he scrambles back, or make a live ball appeal of the missed base.

- Once the tag and base is missed, the umpire should pause to see if either of the above things might happen. If neither is happening, then signal safe. Just like on any other base, when the base is passed it is assumed to have been touched until appealed otherwise. The "safe" signal indicates that the initial tag attempt failed.

- Keep the ball live at least until the runner enters the dugout/dead-ball area. At that point, the runner loses the right to come back and re-touch home. Up until that point, you still might have the runner coming back to re-touch, the defense trying to tag him before he does or the defense making a live-ball appeal of the miss.

- Once the runner leaves the field, the defense can still execute an appeal up until the next pitch is thrown. If they do, the runner is out and the run doesn't count. If they don't, the runner isn't out and run counts.

I suspect the defense just tagged the runner, thinking that's how you perform a dead ball appeal. I still get teams throwing the ball around to make dead ball appeals when runners didn't tag up.

 

[BretMan]

Oh yeah, I get that all the time. Usually accompanied by a coach screaming at the pitcher to first "get on the rubber" then "step off" and throw the ball to a base. All of which is totally unecessary in a game that allows dead ball appeals.

What are your thoughts on the umpire calling "time" before the runner has either had a chance to complete his baserunning duties (go back and touch home) or has stepped off the field? The defense obviously can't execute a live-ball appeal when the ball's dead. Does callin "time" prevent the runner from re-touching the missed base when he otherwise would be able to?

 

[NCASAUmp]

Oh yeah, I get that all the time. Usually accompanied by a coach screaming at the pitcher to first "get on the rubber" then "step off" and throw the ball to a base. All of which is totally unecessary in a game that allows dead ball appeals.

What are your thoughts on the umpire calling "time" before the runner has either had a chance to complete his baserunning duties (go back and touch home) or has stepped off the field? The defense obviously can't execute a live-ball appeal when the ball's dead. Does callin "time" prevent the runner from re-touching the missed base when he otherwise would be able to?

When an umpire calls time, you're declaring the status of the ball as being dead. I say it does not prevent the runner from retouching a missed base, as runners are still able to complete their baserunning responsibilities in other cases where the ball is dead, such as on an overthrow or other blocked ball situations.

However, the defense may now execute a dead ball appeal by asking if the runner missed the plate. Expect a good ***-chewing by a coach, and good luck unringing that bell.

 

[BretMan]

Personally, I wouldn't be calling time here until the runner left live ball area. As you note, doing so allows the defense to execute a dead ball appeal. To me, that gives them a slight advatage. They can get the out without having to actually make a tag (of either the runner or home plate). That just seems too easy, when the runner would still have to come back and touch home exactly as he would during a live ball.

Probably something we might every hundred games or so! But if you can give 'em one less reason to *****...(which the offense usually does anyhow: "But you already called him safe!")

Interestingly, in baseball the mechanic is completely opposite. We are instruced to give no signal on this play. Just stand there like a statue and watch what the players do next. One more of the long list of differences that umpires who work both sports have to keep straight.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Personally, I wouldn't be calling time here until the runner left live ball area. As you note, doing so allows the defense to execute a dead ball appeal. To me, that gives them a slight advatage. They can get the out without having to actually make a tag (of either the runner or home plate). That just seems too easy, when the runner would still have to come back and touch home exactly as he would during a live ball.

Probably something we might every hundred games or so! But if you can give 'em one less reason to *****...(which the offense usually does anyhow: "But you already called him safe!")

Interestingly, in baseball the mechanic is completely opposite. We are instruced to give no signal on this play. Just stand there like a statue and watch what the players do next. One more of the long list of differences that umpires who work both sports have to keep straight.

Well now, you're changing the question.

If the runner misses home plate, I'll hesitate a bit to see what the players will do, then call safe. If the progress of all other runners has stopped and the catcher does not appear to be making any attempt to make an appeal, I'll call time.

 

[irishmafia]

this happened to us in coed last night.

play at the plate. catcher misses the tag on the runner, runner steps on the plate ump signals safe calls time, then the catcher walks over to the runner and tags him, ump then calls the runner out and says that the runner tuched the black mat not the plate. so whats the right call? out or safe?

What black mat? Are you referring to a mat used for the strike zone or the black protusion upon which the white plate sits?

And, yes, it can make a difference in the call.

 

[bb666b77]

Well, it sounds like you already have the call. What's confusing you is the mechanic or the procedure.

A runner missing any base (including home plate) is an appeal play. Anytime a runner misses home plate, we're taught to hesitate slightly to allow the defense and offense to complete the play, then call safe. The hesitation is supposed to be just enough so that it doesn't tip off either side that there's a potential appeal play.

That's why the umpire initially called "safe." S/He did what s/he was supposed to do.

The subsequent "out" call was when the defense then tagged the runner on an appeal. Now, I'm not sure what all was said by the defense, but it's up to the defense to make it clear to the umpire both who and what they are appealing. I have no way of telling what, if anything, was said by the defense. However, assuming it was clear to the umpire that the defense was making an appeal, the out call would be correct if, in the judgment of the umpire, the runner did miss the plate.

Now, there may be a million different local rules that may change all of the above, and I can't speak to those. However, that's as good as I can get you from here.

There's obviously some confusion in your description.

"...runner steps on the plate ump signals safe..."

If the runner really stepped on the plate, the runner is safe. Nothing after that point can change the fact- no tag, or appeal, or complaining or anything else.

Now, if the catcher missed the tag AND the runner missed the plate, here's what should happen:

- The umpire should NOT call time! There is still a continuation of the play going on. The runner can still come back and touch the plate to correct the miss. The defense can still tag the runner before he scrambles back, or make a live ball appeal of the missed base.

- Once the tag and base is missed, the umpire should pause to see if either of the above things might happen. If neither is happening, then signal safe. Just like on any other base, when the base is passed it is assumed to have been touched until appealed otherwise. The "safe" signal indicates that the initial tag attempt failed.

- Keep the ball live at least until the runner enters the dugout/dead-ball area. At that point, the runner loses the right to come back and re-touch home. Up until that point, you still might have the runner coming back to re-touch, the defense trying to tag him before he does or the defense making a live-ball appeal of the miss.

- Once the runner leaves the field, the defense can still execute an appeal up until the next pitch is thrown. If they do, the runner is out and the run doesn't count. If they don't, the runner isn't out and run counts.

I suspect the defense just tagged the runner, thinking that's how you perform a dead ball appeal. I still get teams throwing the ball around to make dead ball appeals when runners didn't tag up.

hey guys always thought the safe sign couldn't go up unless the runner was actually safe.as a fielder it can be hard to tell if a runner is safe or out with only a slight delay in the call for a maybe safe(runner not being safe).

well ump,i had an ump make me do that on an appeal play,i tried to tell her it hasn't been that way for a long time.she might of been having a bad hair day or something.

 

[NCASAUmp]

hey guys always thought the safe sign couldn't go up unless the runner was actually safe.as a fielder it can be hard to tell if a runner is safe or out with only a slight delay in the call for a maybe safe(runner not being safe).

But a play has been made on a runner, and the umpire still has to make a call. So since no tag was applied, we must call safe.

well ump,i had an ump make me do that on an appeal play,i tried to tell her it hasn't been that way for a long time.she might of been having a bad hair day or something.

Sexist much?

 

[chiefgator]

What black mat? Are you referring to a mat used for the strike zone or the black protusion upon which the white plate sits?

And, yes, it can make a difference in the call.

I read it as the "strike mat", but I am curious...Why would it make a difference? The "black edge" is no more part of the plate than the strike mat.

Granted, I have no idea how you could step on the 3/4" black edge that is aglgle the way it is, without hitting some white if the plate is properly set into the ground... but we all know that it rarely is set properly.

 

[VanSin23]

As an umpire, if I see that the runner clearly missed the plate and was tagged, I call the runner out. Not sure what all the debate over an appeal is about. If the runner does not touch the bag and I can clearly see that, why call him safe. Then the catcher goes over and tags him as he is going to the dugout as an appeal. What is the difference in calling the runner out as soon as he is tagged and when it is appealed. He still missed the bag no matter what.

 

[MrEye]

As an umpire, if I see that the runner clearly missed the plate and was tagged, I call the runner out. Not sure what all the debate over an appeal is about. If the runner does not touch the bag and I can clearly see that, why call him safe. Then the catcher goes over and tags him as he is going to the dugout as an appeal. What is the difference in calling the runner out as soon as he is tagged and when it is appealed. He still missed the bag no matter what.

In the OP, the catcher missed the tag. How can you call him out?

 

[NCASAUmp]

As an umpire, if I see that the runner clearly missed the plate and was tagged, I call the runner out. Not sure what all the debate over an appeal is about. If the runner does not touch the bag and I can clearly see that, why call him safe. Then the catcher goes over and tags him as he is going to the dugout as an appeal. What is the difference in calling the runner out as soon as he is tagged and when it is appealed. He still missed the bag no matter what.

This is the difference.

 

[irishmafia]

I read it as the "strike mat", but I am curious...Why would it make a difference? The "black edge" is no more part of the plate than the strike mat.

Actually, it is. ASA interprets any part of the plate as the plate, including the black.

 

[bb666b77]

But a play has been made on a runner, and the umpire still has to make a call. So since no tag was applied, we must call safe.

but how can you call a runner safe that hasn't touch the base,if you understand what i mean.i would think a no call would be more appropriate.

Sexist much?

not really,i know her and she was being,well i'll just leave it at that.really not that bad of an ump.

 

[BretMan]

A runner who touches only the black edge of the plate (if that's even possible or likely) has met the requirement of touching the plate. Think of the black as the vertical edge or side of the base- just exactly like all the other bases have a vertical side or edge to them that a runner can touch.

For the play in the OP, the umpire's safe signal is a ruling on the tag attempt. Anytime there is a tag attempt you have to rule on it and signal either safe or out.

While any runner that passes a base (even without touching it) is, by rule, assumed to have touched it until appealed, we don't just throw up a safe signal everytime a runner passes or safely reaches a base. Change up the OP a little bit with the runner crossing the plate and missing it, but NO tag being attempted. Giving a safe signal on that one would not be the recommended mechanic.

 

[VanSin23]

In the OP, the catcher missed the tag. How can you call him out?

Just read that OP again. I thought he was saying he tagged him. My fault on that. I agree with the other posts about calling the runner safe on a swiped/missed tag then out after an appeal was made. I apologize for my misreading.