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Pistol148

Addicted to Softballfans
I play on ASA(msf) men's team on Tuesday nights. 5th inning were up by 5. 1 out and a runner on first. (The other team is batting). Deep flyball to right field, to which the runner never tagged up because he didn't think it would be caught. The RC did catch and at this point the runner was around second base. The RC threw the ball into the third baseman who missed it and it rolled into the dugout. At this time the other team is screaming for their runner to get back to first. He takes off from between 2-3 base and runs directly over the pitches mound to get back to first.

(I play 1st). I saw the runner pass 2nd when the ball was released from RC. The other team claimed he should be on third and my team tried to claim out of the baseline. What is the correct call? The ump, after 5min, awarded 1st back to the runner.
 
Joker

Joker

Well-Known Member
proper appeal of the runner not tagging up or missing the base while retreating would result in an out
 
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Pistol148

Addicted to Softballfans
So wait till the ump calls time (dead ball) and grab the ball out of the dugout. Then reset and throw the ball to first on grounds of no tag?
 
Joker

Joker

Well-Known Member
just because the ball ends up in the dugout doesn't forgive his lack of tagging up
 
eddieq

eddieq

The Great and Powerful Q
The runner is awarded two bases from where he was when the ball was released, so if he was between 2nd and 3rd when it was released, he would be awarded home and if he hadn't reached 2nd yet when it was released, he'd be awarded third. From your post, he was past second when the ball was caught, so he was likely still there when it was thrown, so the award would be home.

Now, as Joker said, he's required to retouch any base left too soon. But he needs to retouch on the way back. Since he was between 2nd and 3rd at the time, he needed to go back, touch 2nd, then touch 1st, then proceed forward to the awarded base(s) touching all of the bases in legal order. The umpire basically should have awarded the appropriate base, allowed him to complete his baserunning assignments. Once he's completed his baserunning assignments, the defense can appeal any base missed or left too soon. Since the ball is dead, they just have to announce the appeal. Since he missed 2nd on the way back, the appeal can be a simple, "he didn't touch second on the way to retouch first". If the umpire was paying attention during all of this, he should have ruled him out.
 
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Pistol148

Addicted to Softballfans
So if the ball is in the dugout and the runner is now back to first, how can the runner complete his return back to first properly? Also, does the ump calling time change things?
 
eddieq

eddieq

The Great and Powerful Q
Well, he's already screwed the pooch on that one. I'd have to check with some of the more knowledgeable guys, but if he was aware that he needed to retouch 2nd having missed it again, he can go touch second, come back to first, then go to 2nd, 3rd and home.

All of this is happening now that the ball is dead because it went into the dugout. He's permitted (and required) to legally complete his baserunning assignments. Once he's advanced to an awarded base (like 3rd then home), he can no longer go back and retouch the others. The umpire should have announced the award (home) and allowed him to complete his assignments (without coaching him - that's not the umpire's job). Once that's done, he can act on any appeals (without soliciting them, of course). It's on the offense to know that they have to run the bases legally and it's on the defense to know that he didn't and to know to appeal it.
 
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Pistol148

Addicted to Softballfans
OK. So after the ball is in the dugout and the runner is on first, the ump called time. At this point the ump should award him home. Now it's on the runner after he touches home to return back to first by retouching all the bases? All this happens after the ump calls time??
 
eddieq

eddieq

The Great and Powerful Q
Pistol148 said:
OK. So after the ball is in the dugout and the runner is on first, the ump called time. At this point the ump should award him home. Now it's on the runner after he touches home to return back to first by retouching all the bases? All this happens after the ump calls time??
Click to expand...

Ok, so here is how it should go...

Ball goes into the dugout.
Umpire: DEAD BALL! Runner is awarded home.
Runner then completes his baserunning assignments. This would include retouching any base missed or left early. Once he has advanced to any awarded base (in this case third then home), he is no longer permitted to retouch the missed/left early bases.
Once he's done, the defense can appeal any missed bases. If the defense does not appeal or doesn't appeal the appropriate base (they cannot be allowed to "guess" outs), then we just play on and the next batter comes to the plate.

It's really not that complicated.
 
BretMan

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
If...he missed second base on the way back to first, then tagged first base, then touched second on his way to third/home as he competed his base award...the touch of second base, the second time by, corrects the missed base and eliminates an appeal for the missed base.
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
BretMan said:
If...he missed second base on the way back to first, then tagged first base, then touched second on his way to third/home as he competed his base award...the touch of second base, the second time by, corrects the missed base and eliminates an appeal for the missed base.
Click to expand...

Correct. This is what's commonly known as "last time passed." Or is it "last time past?"

Stupid English homonyms. Either way, BretMan's right.
 
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dkissane319

Starting Player
So just for clarification. The runner never tagged up so when The OF throws the ball into the dug out and the ump calls dead ball and awards the runner home the runner can go back and touch first, second and third on his way to home negating any appeal that he never tagged up? Or once the Ump awards home is the runner forced to touch third and home and then when play is reinstated the appeal for not tagging up can be awarded?


Also side question once the player runs over the pitchers mound shouldn't he be automatically declared out for being out of the base path?
 
eddieq

eddieq

The Great and Powerful Q
BretMan said:
If...he missed second base on the way back to first, then tagged first base, then touched second on his way to third/home as he competed his base award...the touch of second base, the second time by, corrects the missed base and eliminates an appeal for the missed base.
Click to expand...

Thanks. That's the only thing I was fuzzy on.
 
fitzpats

fitzpats

AKA - The Anti Ringer
dkissane319 said:
So just for clarification. The runner never tagged up so when The OF throws the ball into the dug out and the ump calls dead ball and awards the runner home the runner can go back and touch first, second and third on his way to home negating any appeal that he never tagged up? Or once the Ump awards home is the runner forced to touch third and home and then when play is reinstated the appeal for not tagging up can be awarded?


Also side question once the player runs over the pitchers mound shouldn't he be automatically declared out for being out of the base path?
Click to expand...

Ball goes into the dugout, and the runner was past second when the ball was released by the OF. The runner should be awarded home by the umpire. At this point, the runner should run the bases in reverse order touching second and first before beginning to touch the awarded bases. Basically, the runner would touch second three times in the midst of all this (passing 2nd before the catch, reversing and touching 2nd on the way to first, touching 2nd on the way to 3rd and home)

As for out of the baseline, the runner is fine going from between second and third to the mound to second. He was not avoiding a tag, so the 3-foot baseline was not there. The path between bases may have been, but the baseline is enacted when a play is put on the runner and the runner must take a direct route to the base or be declared out for avoiding the tag by running outside of the baseline between the runner and the base. Hoping that makes sense.
 
BretMan

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
dkissane319 said:
So just for clarification. The runner never tagged up so when The OF throws the ball into the dug out and the ump calls dead ball and awards the runner home the runner can go back and touch first, second and third on his way to home negating any appeal that he never tagged up? Or once the Ump awards home is the runner forced to touch third and home and then when play is reinstated the appeal for not tagging up can be awarded?
Click to expand...

When the ball becomes dead for being thrown out of play, runners may correct their baserunning mistakes before taking their base award. Basically, since the defense screwed up by throwing the ball out of play, we don't punish the offense by preventing them from doing something that they legally could have done if the defense hadn't screwed up.

If this wasn't the case...fielders could purposely throw the ball out of play and they'd pretty much get an automatic out, because the runner couldn't go back and tag up.

dkissane319 said:
Also side question once the player runs over the pitchers mound shouldn't he be automatically declared out for being out of the base path?
Click to expand...

No.

Runners can be called out of the basepath ONLY when they leave it to avoid a tag. For that you need a fielder with possession of the ball actually trying to touch the runner.

With no tag attempt being made, runners can run wherever they want to and there's no "basepath" violation.
 
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Pistol148

Addicted to Softballfans
So lets say the runner just went straight home after the ump awarded him home. Do we, in the field, appeal the missed base(2nd on the way back) or the no tag up?
 
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joncon

Addicted to Softballfans
BretMan said:
If...he missed second base on the way back to first, then tagged first base, then touched second on his way to third/home as he competed his base award...the touch of second base, the second time by, corrects the missed base and eliminates an appeal for the missed base.
Click to expand...

That is odd but awesome ^

It sound like, as long as he touches it at some point, he's good.
 
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Pistol148

Addicted to Softballfans
The ump doesn't have to tell the runner how to properly run? What I'm saying is if he awards home to the runner and the runner begins to walk directly home, its not the umps job to inform him how to properly complete the play.
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Pistol148 said:
The ump doesn't have to tell the runner how to properly run? What I'm saying is if he awards home to the runner and the runner begins to walk directly home, its not the umps job to inform him how to properly complete the play.
Click to expand...

No, it's not the umpire's job. That's on the teams.
 
J

joncon

Addicted to Softballfans
NCASAUmp said:
Not quite. As long as he touches it the last time he passed the base, he's good.
Click to expand...

Thanks.


I hope I never live to see this come up. As a player, I'd rather just take/give up the out than try to explain it to a normal ump. :)
 
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