ASA BR touches white base at 1st on a close play

[MichaelS]

Here's a play I've been wondering about for a few days. Nobody on, batter bats the ball to a middle infielder, runs to 1st, pretty speedy, narrowly beating the ball to 1st but the BR touched the white base. The BR is called out by the umpire for not using the safety base. Nothing was said by the defense. I was under the impression this is an appeal play the defense needs to make. Am I wrong? Thank you

Assuming I'm right...my team wasn't involved in the game but were I the offensive manager should I have asked the umpire which defensive player made the appeal?

 

[stork]

In my leagues, the umpire makes that call on his own. Out. They put the orange bag there to use it on the close plays. Don't use it, you are out if ump sees it.

 

[Hebrew Hacker]

Technically it's an appeal play, but many leagues have their own rule where it's an automatic call.

 

[p17]

it's a safety rule. my leagues always have it in writing that it is an automatic out, no appeal needed

 

[sjury]

League rule > Book Rule ... we have the same rule around here, umpire is supposed to call it without an appeal, for safety reasons.

 

[MichaelS]

Thanks guys I thought I was right that it was an appeal play by the rule book. Our league has no rule to override it and I would totally be in support of adding such a rule for safety's sake.

I'll respectfully ask the ump which player made the appeal should such a play ever happen to my team, not that I expect it to go anywhere

 

[NCASAUmp]

Only time it's not an appeal play is if the act of only touching the white portion of the double base causes interference.

Remember, it's not that the batter-runner touched the white base, it's that he didn't touch the orange (or whatever color you're using) base. If he touches that orange base even in the slightest, the defense has no appeal, as no infraction has occurred, even if most of his foot was on the white base.

 

[Donger73]

Only time it's not an appeal play is if the act of only touching the white portion of the double base causes interference.

Remember, it's not that the batter-runner touched the white base, it's that he didn't touch the orange (or whatever color you're using) base. If he touches that orange base even in the slightest, the defense has no appeal, as no infraction has occurred, even if most of his foot was on the white base.

Just asking for clarification...

You have a play on a batter/runner that you call safe and you see that he only touches the white base and no part of his foot touches the safety base. I as the first baseman or any of my defensive teammates could appeal to you that he never touched the safety base and you would reverse the call to out? The play occurred at a sanctioned ASA tournament so there is no league rules that may apply.

Not trying to argue, just asking so I clearly understand my options from an appeal perspective

Thank you

 

[MichelleG]

What's the call on the reverse? Runner (me) going to first. First baseman has her fat ass parked over the orange bag. I have to cut around her, and slow down to hit the orange and avoid a collision. She did it twice. First time I politely told her that the orange belongs to the baserunner. Second time I yelled at her to get the hell off the orange bag. Crickets from blue. BTW, safe both times but kinda pissed.

 

[p17]

1b can use orange bag if the throw drags him that way or is coming from foul territory

 

[eddieq]

What's the call on the reverse? Runner (me) going to first. First baseman has her fat ass parked over the orange bag. I have to cut around her, and slow down to hit the orange and avoid a collision. She did it twice. First time I politely told her that the orange belongs to the baserunner. Second time I yelled at her to get the hell off the orange bag. Crickets from blue. BTW, safe both times but kinda pissed.

Did she have the ball or was she in the act of fielder a batted ball? If no, then you have obstruction on F3. Doesn't give you a right to crash into her (which I'm not saying you would do, just putting it out there for some of the meatheads on here). If she had possession of the ball, she can be where she damn well pleases.

Think of it this way - the only time you have a "must use..." situation is on the "routine" play at first, in which the defense must use the white portion and the offense must use the contrasting (typically orange) portion. If the throw pulls the defense toward the orange bag or into foul territory, then all of the "must" rules are off and the offense may use either side and the defense may use either side.

 

[eddieq]

Just asking for clarification...

You have a play on a batter/runner that you call safe and you see that he only touches the white base and no part of his foot touches the safety base. I as the first baseman or any of my defensive teammates could appeal to you that he never touched the safety base and you would reverse the call to out? The play occurred at a sanctioned ASA tournament so there is no league rules that may apply.

Not trying to argue, just asking so I clearly understand my options from an appeal perspective

Thank you

If you make an appeal prior to the batter-runner returning to first, then you have the out. You are appealing a runner missing a base. Once the runner returns to it, well, they've touched it as required.

 

[MichelleG]

Did she have the ball or was she in the act of fielder a batted ball? If no, then you have obstruction on F3. Doesn't give you a right to crash into her (which I'm not saying you would do, just putting it out there for some of the meatheads on here). If she had possession of the ball, she can be where she damn well pleases.

Think of it this way - the only time you have a "must use..." situation is on the "routine" play at first, in which the defense must use the white portion and the offense must use the contrasting (typically orange) portion. If the throw pulls the defense toward the orange bag or into foul territory, then all of the "must" rules are off and the offense may use either side and the defense may use either side.

She was fielding the ball, but throw was online. No reason to straddle both bags. I went out of my way to avoid her. Contact is painful both ways. Good to know that if the throw pulls her over the safety portion that she's entitled to all the space she needs. Thanks for the clarification!

 

[irishmafia]

Just asking for clarification...

You have a play on a batter/runner that you call safe and you see that he only touches the white base and no part of his foot touches the safety base. I as the first baseman or any of my defensive teammates could appeal to you that he never touched the safety base and you would reverse the call to out? The play occurred at a sanctioned ASA tournament so there is no league rules that may apply.

Not trying to argue, just asking so I clearly understand my options from an appeal perspective

Thank you

No, this is a live ball appeal which means the person making the appeal must have the ball and as part of the appeal, either tag the runner or base prior to the runner returning to that base or an umpire suspending play.

 

[Iowagooser]

Ok so what if the first baseman is fielding the ball in foul territory and touches the orange bag to get a runner out. As in if the fielder misplays the hit and it goes into foul territory picks it up. Is the runner out? Or does the fielder need to still touch the white bag

 

[Jordan9215]

Thanks guys I thought I was right that it was an appeal play by the rule book. Our league has no rule to override it and I would totally be in support of adding such a rule for safety's sake.

I'll respectfully ask the ump which player made the appeal should such a play ever happen to my team, not that I expect it to go anywhere

I'd advise against waiting until it happens to talk to the ump about the rule. I'd ask the umpire for clarification on the rule at the coinflip, when both managers are present. My league, like many of the other guys', the ump will call the out automatically. You touch the white bag while a play is being made, you're out. I've never played a league or tournament where there was an appeal involved.

Don't wait until after the fact, get clarification up front.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Ok so what if the first baseman is fielding the ball in foul territory and touches the orange bag to get a runner out. As in if the fielder misplays the hit and it goes into foul territory picks it up. Is the runner out? Or does the fielder need to still touch the white bag

Since the play is coming from foul territory, the fielder may use the orange base to get the out.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I'd advise against waiting until it happens to talk to the ump about the rule. I'd ask the umpire for clarification on the rule at the coinflip, when both managers are present. My league, like many of the other guys', the ump will call the out automatically. You touch the white bag while a play is being made, you're out. I've never played a league or tournament where there was an appeal involved.

Don't wait until after the fact, get clarification up front.

I disagree. The plate conference is not the time to start asking 100 questions about rules, rule interpretations, and "what ifs." It only delays the start of the game, and for what? Answering a bunch of questions over something that might happen?

I'd rather coaches waited until the call's actually made before they start asking about it.

I also don't mind coaches asking questions after the game, so long as it's done respectfully and not to argue over something that happened earlier in the game.

 

[NCASAUmp]

She was fielding the ball, but throw was online. No reason to straddle both bags. I went out of my way to avoid her. Contact is painful both ways. Good to know that if the throw pulls her over the safety portion that she's entitled to all the space she needs. Thanks for the clarification!

That's not what we said.

If she has the ball, she can be wherever she wants. Hell, she can sit on the base, if she wants to. If she's in the act of fielding a batted ball, she has the right-of-way.

If neither are the case, she can't impede the runner, even as the runner is approaching a base while a play is being made on her.

 

[Jordan9215]

I disagree. The plate conference is not the time to start asking 100 questions about rules, rule interpretations, and "what ifs." It only delays the start of the game, and for what? Answering a bunch of questions over something that might happen?

I'd rather coaches waited until the call's actually made before they start asking about it.

I also don't mind coaches asking questions after the game, so long as it's done respectfully and not to argue over something that happened earlier in the game.

I disagree with your disagree... LOL. It won't be a session of 20 questions, but many times have I seen umps clarify something at the coin toss like the use of the safety bag, or hitting middle in league when we play a rec team, or a unique situation specific to that field. (takes 30 seconds).

 

[eddieq]

At my plate conference, I will sometimes simply state, "Please remind your batters to run to the orange bag" and not say another word about it. It's also not something I do each time. Like NC said, it's not a rules clinic.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I disagree with your disagree... LOL. It won't be a session of 20 questions, but many times have I seen umps clarify something at the coin toss like the use of the safety bag, or hitting middle in league when we play a rec team, or a unique situation specific to that field. (takes 30 seconds).

Unique field situations should absolutely be covered at the plate conference. That's highly encouraged.

Telling coaches and players how to follow the rules, however, should not be done at the plate conference. What else should we cover? Infield fly? "Does the run count" questions?

Each added sentence about some rule interpretation is just one more delay to the game that's not necessary.

 

[irishmafia]

I disagree with your disagree... LOL. It won't be a session of 20 questions, but many times have I seen umps clarify something at the coin toss like the use of the safety bag, or hitting middle in league when we play a rec team, or a unique situation specific to that field. (takes 30 seconds).

You can disagree all you want, the only opinion that matters is the umpire's.

Special league/tournament and ground rules are fine. A new rule or recent change or interpretation, not a problem. Something that has been around for years, you should know the rule, play ball.

The umpire should not be giving a rules clinic at the pre-game meeting.

 

[Jordan9215]

You can disagree all you want, the only opinion that matters is the umpire's.

Special league/tournament and ground rules are fine. A new rule or recent change or interpretation, not a problem. Something that has been around for years, you should know the rule, play ball.

The umpire should not be giving a rules clinic at the pre-game meeting.

back up here, I'm not disagreeing with the umpires opinion (the actual game umpire, not NCASA). All I said was I think if the OP has a question about the orange bag he should ask it at the plate conference instead of waiting until someone steps on the white bag and potentially injures someone.
"Hey, Blue."
"Yes?"
"if someone steps on the white bag when they should've stepped on the orange bag will you call the out automatically or will there need to be an appeal?"
*Insert answer here.*

In the leagues and tournaments I've played in, people aren't morons and their coaches have been around for a while. They aren't going to ask a million questions at the plate conference, but if there's something you're unsure about that is absolutely when I'd ask the question. I'd want clarification before it becomes an issue. I think this 20 second question would delay the game than people calling time because they disagree with what the ump calls, or if someone gets injured, etc. I think you both are big time overlooking into what I said and I'm not condoning a pre-game compare and contrast on everyone's respective interpretations of the rules. All I'm saying is, if you have a question, just ask.

 

[NCASAUmp]

back up here, I'm not disagreeing with the umpires opinion (the actual game umpire, not NCASA). All I said was I think if the OP has a question about the orange bag he should ask it at the plate conference instead of waiting until someone steps on the white bag and potentially injures someone.
"Hey, Blue."
"Yes?"
"if someone steps on the white bag when they should've stepped on the orange bag will you call the out automatically or will there need to be an appeal?"
*Insert answer here.*

In the leagues and tournaments I've played in, people aren't morons and their coaches have been around for a while. They aren't going to ask a million questions at the plate conference, but if there's something you're unsure about that is absolutely when I'd ask the question. I'd want clarification before it becomes an issue. I think this 20 second question would delay the game than people calling time because they disagree with what the ump calls, or if someone gets injured, etc. I think you both are big time overlooking into what I said and I'm not condoning a pre-game compare and contrast on everyone's respective interpretations of the rules. All I'm saying is, if you have a question, just ask.

Yes, ask, but this particular question is handled by a rule that takes up 3/4 of a page. A complete, comprehensive answer will take some time to give, and anything less could end up causing more confusion than it may appear to solve.

I'm sure every umpire who's called enough games could come up with an example of how a short answer given to a coach ended up getting misconstrued or misapplied, biting them in the rear. I started typing one here, but figured I'd spare everyone another case of TLDR.

Not to mention the fact that in order to get the foul-up, I'd have to explain almost an entire page of the DP/FLEX rule.

That's why I'm here. I'd rather you guys ask your questions here, off of the field, where we can give you the most thorough explanations possible. Hopefully, it will result in less confusion on the field.

 

[Donger73]

If you make an appeal prior to the batter-runner returning to first, then you have the out. You are appealing a runner missing a base. Once the runner returns to it, well, they've touched it as required.

No, this is a live ball appeal which means the person making the appeal must have the ball and as part of the appeal, either tag the runner or base prior to the runner returning to that base or an umpire suspending play.

Thank you both for your help

 

[MichaelS]

Thank you both for your help

So I guess my question now is, the firstbaseman will have the ball in their glove while touching first base on a close play at first base. I believe in the situation where a runner leaves a base prior to a fielder contacting a caught fly ball the defense appeals by bringing the ball to the base left too early. In the close play at 1st scenario is the fact that the firstbaseman has the ball at first while touching it enough to initiate an appeal or does the firstbaseman have to indicate what they are appealing?

 

[NCASAUmp]

So I guess my question now is, the firstbaseman will have the ball in their glove while touching first base on a close play at first base. I believe in the situation where a runner leaves a base prior to a fielder contacting a caught fly ball the defense appeals by bringing the ball to the base left too early. In the close play at 1st scenario is the fact that the firstbaseman has the ball at first while touching it enough to initiate an appeal or does the firstbaseman have to indicate what they are appealing?

It must be clear to all that the defensive player is making an appeal on a specific runner for a specific infraction (leaving too early, missing a base, etc.). There are no "accidental appeals."

 

[MichelleG]

That's not what we said.

If she has the ball, she can be wherever she wants. Hell, she can sit on the base, if she wants to. If she's in the act of fielding a batted ball, she has the right-of-way.

If neither are the case, she can't impede the runner, even as the runner is approaching a base while a play is being made on her.

So, even if the throw doesn't pull her to the safety bag, she could drift over there? (intentionally?) Isn't that potentially initiating contact? I'm thinking of a close play where the runner wouldn't have the time to avoid the collision.

 

[NCASAUmp]

So, even if the throw doesn't pull her to the safety bag, she could drift over there? (intentionally?) Isn't that potentially initiating contact? I'm thinking of a close play where the runner wouldn't have the time to avoid the collision.

There's a difference between the play taking the fielder there, and the fielder taking the play there. If there was no need for her to go into foul territory and tag the orange base, then she may not legally do so.