ASA Citing rule from dugout

[ca_llmedaddy]

Is there something illegal about citing a rule and reading it to umpire? I did this the other day from dugout, he looked at me and said next time I cite a rule he's ejecting me, get that book out of here....... Other guys said it was bad form to take book on field but not illegal, I was in dugout simply stating a rule.

 

[whogotz]

lmao - this is hysterical. i have asked to see a rule book for certainty - but do so in a respectable manner.

 

[eyerolleddapiec]

If you were protesting, then having a rule book isnt a bad thing. I would imagine a lot of egos would be hurt if you're calling out an umpire as a game is going on though. Nothing illegal about it as far as I know

 

[trip]

you showed him up in front of 20 players and whoever was watching. if you calmly went up to him the outcome would've likely been different.

if you yell something across the field i'm likely to do the same thing.

 

[reags8]

How about this, play the game.....

Taking out a rule book and citing the rule to an ump is only going to cause problems for your team.

 

[ilyk2win]

How about this, play the game.....

Taking out a rule book and citing the rule to an ump is only going to cause problems for your team.

Uhhhmm, huh? They are paid, therefore "professionals" and should be held accountable to know and enforce the rules properly. If they're egregious, why shouldn't they be called on it?

 

[Joker]

you can talk to an ump, but don't quote the rule book. you're the douche here

 

[reags8]

Yes the $40 they get for umping makes them a "professional" - I am not saying that citing a rule is wrong I believe that way you went about letting the ump know he has incorrect was wrong and would not benefit anyone on your team.

I ump and I've told coaches a million times that simply telling the ump "I don't agree with your call" calmly and collectively goes a lot further than kicking up a ***** storm.

I agree with the above post - take the ump aside when the call calms down and is over and let him know your position and what you researched.

At the end of the day was it the call lost the game ?

 

[ilyk2win]

Yes the $40 they get for umping makes them a "professional" - I am not saying that citing a rule is wrong I believe that way you went about letting the ump know he has incorrect was wrong and would not benefit anyone on your team.

I ump and I've told coaches a million times that simply telling the ump "I don't agree with your call" calmly and collectively goes a lot further than kicking up a ***** storm.

I agree with the above post - take the ump aside when the call calms down and is over and let him know your position and what you researched.

At the end of the day was it the call lost the game ?

$40/hr is pretty good money.....

I don't agree with how the OP went about it, but your stance was "play the game." If a rule is being incorrectly called, you should be allowed to address that and there shouldn't be recourse from the ump regardless of who is right/wrong.

And yes, in a close game, a "wrong" call can change the outcome of the game. Players aren't being paid to play, but umpires are and as such they should be held to a higher standard.

 

[trip]

not when you're spouting off a rule from the dugout. gtfo of the dugout and come talk to me.

 

[Joker]

$40/hr is pretty good money.....

I don't agree with how the OP went about it, but your stance was "play the game." If a rule is being incorrectly called, you should be allowed to address that and there shouldn't be recourse from the ump regardless of who is right/wrong.

And yes, in a close game, a "wrong" call can change the outcome of the game. Players aren't being paid to play, but umpires are and as such they should be held to a higher standard.

yes you should be allowed to discuss it like an adult and not yell out a quote from the rule book from the dugout. ump is completely in the right to tell him to shut his mouth

 

[ilyk2win]

not when you're spouting off a rule from the dugout. gtfo of the dugout and come talk to me.

yes you should be allowed to discuss it like an adult and not yell out a quote from the rule book from the dugout. ump is completely in the right to tell him to shut his mouth

I wasn't debating any of that. Look at Reags response.....

 

[sjury]

An umpire is a judge. Do you think a judge would allow you to site court cases by yelling them from your desk at the bench, without telling you shut your mouth or holding you in contempt? There's a proper order, Your honor, I object, as ____ vs. _____ states...etc. The judge then takes what you said and rules on it. If there is a rule concern, the team manager, should call time and have a conference with the umpire and hash out the rule and/or application of such a rule. If they cannot come to an agreement, then file a protest. If you're not the team manager then shut your mouth, and throw away the rule book. If you are the team manager, then conduct yourself like one, and stop being "that guy" the rule douche and treat the umpire with a little respect and maybe you'll get some back.

Players aren't being paid to play, but umpires are and as such they should be held to a higher standard.

I will agree to disagree with this statement. First, you are wrong, players and umpires should be held to the same standards. A player doesn't get a free pass to be an ass because he's not paid to play. If you expect them to live up to a hirer standard, then instead of addressing them as "Hey Ump..." or "Blue" you should address them as "Sir" or "Miss". You cannot expect the world of an umpire, but not give anything in return.

 

[NCASAUmp]

you showed him up in front of 20 players and whoever was watching. if you calmly went up to him the outcome would've likely been different.

if you yell something across the field i'm likely to do the same thing.

^^^^
This. Absolutely this.

Questions for the OP. Are you the coach? Why didn't you just call "time" and ask to talk to him?

Shouting at an umpire from the dugout will never get you anywhere. Even if you're right, you're still in the wrong. Just come talk to us about the call, and we'll sort it all out. If the umpire is still "wrong," protest the game.

I've never had a problem with a coach coming out to calmly talk with me about a call. I absolutely welcome it. It gets everyone on the same page, the coach gets his/her say, I get my say, and it keeps people from getting raw over a call.

So please, calm yourself down, call "time," and come talk with us calmly. You'll be surprised at how well it goes.

And if the umpire is the one who decides to act the fool, then you'll have every right to file a complaint. But if you fire the first salvo by showing him/her up, don't expect a whole lot of sympathy.

 

[ilyk2win]

An umpire is a judge. Do you think a judge would allow you to site court cases by yelling them from your desk at the bench, without telling you shut your mouth or holding you in contempt? There's a proper order, Your honor, I object, as ____ vs. _____ states...etc. The judge then takes what you said and rules on it. If there is a rule concern, the team manager, should call time and have a conference with the umpire and hash out the rule and/or application of such a rule. If they cannot come to an agreement, then file a protest. If you're not the team manager then shut your mouth, and throw away the rule book. If you are the team manager, then conduct yourself like one, and stop being "that guy" the rule douche and treat the umpire with a little respect and maybe you'll get some back.



I will agree to disagree with this statement. First, you are wrong, players and umpires should be held to the same standards. A player doesn't get a free pass to be an ass because he's not paid to play. If you expect them to live up to a hirer standard, then instead of addressing them as "Hey Ump..." or "Blue" you should address them as "Sir" or "Miss". You cannot expect the world of an umpire, but not give anything in return.

2 things....

1 - you just compared an umpire to a judge.....LMFAO.

2 - the second part is taken out of context. His point was that play makes the difference in the game not a bad call......that stance usually infers that players make errors (usu. a lot of them) so focus on what you could have done better instead of what the ump could have done better. To that was my point....umps are paid, players are not.

 

[reags8]

"2 - the second part is taken out of context. His point was that play makes the difference in the game not a bad call......that stance usually infers that players make errors (usu. a lot of them) so focus on what you could have done better instead of what the ump could have done better. To that was my point....umps are paid, players are not."

You were almost there until you tried to "infer" something .....

I had two points in my response and I will boil them down so you don't make any further assumptions:
1. Calling out a rule from the dugout gains you zero - period (except getting yourself and your entire team on the wrong side of the ump)
2. Don't put all your eggs in the umps basket where the entire game is teetering on his calls, play your best, hit and field the ball.

Last if you feel the need to question a call, do it calmly and with professionalism because as you stated they are paid and are professionals.

 

[AH23]

Uhhhmm, huh? They are paid, therefore "professionals" and should be held accountable to know and enforce the rules properly. If they're egregious, why shouldn't they be called on it?

Not from the dugout:wtf2:

 

[SevenBizzos]

I only bring out the rule book to the ump if they request I do so - which has happened.

 

[sjury]

2 things....

1 - you just compared an umpire to a judge.....LMFAO.

2 - the second part is taken out of context. His point was that play makes the difference in the game not a bad call......that stance usually infers that players make errors (usu. a lot of them) so focus on what you could have done better instead of what the ump could have done better. To that was my point....umps are paid, players are not.

So umpires are not like judges? Even of you do not like the comparison, they still do comparatively the same thing on a different level.

See above posts, you don't call people on the carpet from the dug out. There is a proper and improper way to handle yourself whether your paid or not, and the OP was being a douche.

 

[markf]

Yeah.... keep in mind the egos that are involved in the situation at any given point. Noone likes being told theyre wrong but some take it better than others. If youre a jerk, youll get a jerk response, like you did.

Civil conversations are the best way to try and communicate with umps. Its not enjoyed when there's constant jawing over what everyone thinks the ump missed. If a team has a concern, the COACH needs to call time and handle it in a civil manner. plain and simple. Reading a rule from a dugout probably isnt specifically against the rules, but its not recommended.

Also you have to remember, who says youre right in the first place. The ump saw the same play and had a different interpretation on what took place, therefor maybe you should be trying to understand why he made that call by talking to him rather than just yelling what you think makes you right.

 

[Nacirema85]

Damn... umps down here get $23 a game solo and $20 if paired up.

As for calling out the blue with a book, from the dugout, to point out how he was wrong? Complete ass-hat move.

The approach should have been, walk up between innings and say, "Hey blue. I have a question. I know you made this call and we'll stick by it, but I just wanted clarification..." and then bring up what you read in the book. It's important to state though that you're going to stick with the call he made.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Damn... umps down here get $23 a game solo and $20 if paired up.

As for calling out the blue with a book, from the dugout, to point out how he was wrong? Complete ass-hat move.

The approach should have been, walk up between innings and say, "Hey blue. I have a question. I know you made this call and we'll stick by it, but I just wanted clarification..." and then bring up what you read in the book. It's important to state though that you're going to stick with the call he made.

Why wait until after? I'd rather you ask me before the next pitch. That way, if I screwed up, I can try to fix it.

 

[Nacirema85]

Why wait until after? I'd rather you ask me before the next pitch. That way, if I screwed up, I can try to fix it.

Well that's fine, but that still implies you approach it by just saying, "Hey, blue do you mind if I get some clarification?"

Rather than the approach of, "COME ON BLUE. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS. THE RULE SAYS" which a lot of us are guilty of.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Well that's fine, but that still implies you approach it by just saying, "Hey, blue do you mind if I get some clarification?"

Rather than the approach of, "COME ON BLUE. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS. THE RULE SAYS" which a lot of us are guilty of.

Hopefully, yes!

Man, SO many problems would be solved out there if the coaches would just come talk to us and ask us what we saw or why we made the call. Instead, they get completely bent out of shape and end up getting tossed because they let it build and build, then BOOM.

No need for that. Come talk to me, coach. We'll discuss what happened.

 

[jsam21238]

2 things....

1 - you just compared an umpire to a judge.....LMFAO.

2 - the second part is taken out of context. His point was that play makes the difference in the game not a bad call......that stance usually infers that players make errors (usu. a lot of them) so focus on what you could have done better instead of what the ump could have done better. To that was my point....umps are paid, players are not.

Well... they are the judges of the ball field.

 

[jsam21238]

Uhhhmm, huh? They are paid, therefore "professionals" and should be held accountable to know and enforce the rules properly. If they're egregious, why shouldn't they be called on it?

They can be and there is a process to do that... it is called filing a protest.

 

[ilyk2win]

Well... they are the judges of the ball field.

They are officials and aren't there to judge! And while there are some pretty stand up "blues" in this forum, there are more guys that are there for the "easy" beer money than are there to "earn" their pay, whether that be $20 or $40/hr.

They can be and there is a process to do that... it is called filing a protest.

Agreed....now go back and look at my comment in context....it was a response to post.

FWIW, I disagree with the OP's method, but I also disagree if the umpire retaliated in some fashion (either by how he calls the close ones or how he treats that player/team). Everyone seems to think that the coach and coach only should approach the blue in a civil matter....and I AGREE....but then shouldn't the PAID official be held to the same standard. Here is what I mean.....why is it ok for the ump to yell into the dugout to said "ass hat" instead of calling time, call for the coach, provide "warning" or whatever and then move on. Just b/c a player is a DB, doesn't mean the ump gets a free pass to be one too.

 

[NCASAUmp]

They are officials and aren't there to judge! And while there are some pretty stand up "blues" in this forum, there are more guys that are there for the "easy" beer money than are there to "earn" their pay, whether that be $20 or $40/hr.

Well, that's exactly what a sports official does - we are impartial arbiters who determine what did or did not happen on the field, just as a judge does. While I would certainly not place myself greater than or equal to a judge, I would say that the basic premise is still the same. We must both be well-versed in what the rules/laws of the game/society say, and we must impartially apply said rules/laws without prejudice or malice.

Agreed....now go back and look at my comment in context....it was a response to post.

FWIW, I disagree with the OP's method, but I also disagree if the umpire retaliated in some fashion (either by how he calls the close ones or how he treats that player/team). Everyone seems to think that the coach and coach only should approach the blue in a civil matter....and I AGREE....but then shouldn't the PAID official be held to the same standard. Here is what I mean.....why is it ok for the ump to yell into the dugout to said "ass hat" instead of calling time, call for the coach, provide "warning" or whatever and then move on. Just b/c a player is a DB, doesn't mean the ump gets a free pass to be one too.

And umpires should definitely conduct themselves professionally, no one is disputing that. If an umpire were to misbehave in the association I work for, my assignor would certainly want to know about it.

 

[ilyk2win]

How about this, play the game.....

Taking out a rule book and citing the rule to an ump is only going to cause problems for your team.

"2 - the second part is taken out of context. His point was that play makes the difference in the game not a bad call......that stance usually infers that players make errors (usu. a lot of them) so focus on what you could have done better instead of what the ump could have done better. To that was my point....umps are paid, players are not."

You were almost there until you tried to "infer" something .....

I had two points in my response and I will boil them down so you don't make any further assumptions:
1. Calling out a rule from the dugout gains you zero - period (except getting yourself and your entire team on the wrong side of the ump)2. Don't put all your eggs in the umps basket where the entire game is teetering on his calls, play your best, hit and field the ball.

Last if you feel the need to question a call, do it calmly and with professionalism because as you stated they are paid and are professionals.

Well, that's exactly what a sports official does - we are impartial arbiters who determine what did or did not happen on the field, just as a judge does. While I would certainly not place myself greater than or equal to a judge, I would say that the basic premise is still the same. We must both be well-versed in what the rules/laws of the game/society say, and we must impartially apply said rules/laws without prejudice or malice.

And umpires should definitely conduct themselves professionally, no one is disputing that. If an umpire were to misbehave in the association I work for, my assignor would certainly want to know about it.

See bold above....some contradictions there.

IMO an umpire is more of a supervisor than a judge. I mean you do "judge" what is a ball/strike, out/safe, fair/foul, but let's not get too carried away. You're there to make those calls as an impartial/objective figure as if left to the teams themselves it would be more subjective and to supervise that the game be conducted within the framework of the rule set.

And again, while there are many good umpires who take the responsibility seriously, there are just as many, if not more, who half ass it and are there for the easy money grab. And I get it, we're talking a recreational sport here, not life or death, and while IMO $40/hr is good money, it's not making anyone rich.

But I will stick by my claim that a paid official/judge/whatever should be held to a higher standard than the participant. An umpire has a method to deal with an unruly player, on the spot; whereas more times than not the players are stuck with the umpire regardless of their "professionalism" and/or aptitude.

 

[reags8]

See bold above....some contradictions there.

IMO an umpire is more of a supervisor than a judge. I mean you do "judge" what is a ball/strike, out/safe, fair/foul, but let's not get too carried away. You're there to make those calls as an impartial/objective figure as if left to the teams themselves it would be more subjective and to supervise that the game be conducted within the framework of the rule set.

And again, while there are many good umpires who take the responsibility seriously, there are just as many, if not more, who half ass it and are there for the easy money grab. And I get it, we're talking a recreational sport here, not life or death, and while IMO $40/hr is good money, it's not making anyone rich.

But I will stick by my claim that a paid official/judge/whatever should be held to a higher standard than the participant. An umpire has a method to deal with an unruly player, on the spot; whereas more times than not the players are stuck with the umpire regardless of their "professionalism" and/or aptitude.

You should be an ump.....