correct call?

browns fan

Addicted to Softballfans
man on 1st and 2nd no outs. fly ball hit to right center. both runners tag (runner on 2nd leaves early). right center fielder throws ball out of play, dead ball. both runners advanced 1 base on the fly ball. they appeal runner left 2nd early, ruled out. runner on 1st is awarded 3rd because ball thrown out of play.. is this the correct call?
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
If the runner from first base had not yet reached second at the time the ball left the thrower’s hand, yes, good call. It’s a simple overthrow.
 

browns fan

Addicted to Softballfans
Thanks, someone was arguing that the runner that left early from second, because they had not reached 3rd base when the throw went out of play, should not have been called out and been awarded home on the over throw.
 

lb16

the natural
Thanks, someone was arguing that the runner that left early from second, because they had not reached 3rd base when the throw went out of play, should not have been called out and been awarded home on the over throw.
Yea, they are wrong!
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Thanks, someone was arguing that the runner that left early from second, because they had not reached 3rd base when the throw went out of play, should not have been called out and been awarded home on the over throw.
Even on an overthrow, all runners must complete their baserunning responsibilities. This means that if they left early, they must go back, tag up, and touch the bases in proper order (both forward AND BACKWARD). Also, any runners behind them must not pass them.

If they don't complete their baserunning responsibilities, they are subject to appeal, as that runner found out.
 

fthrmulcahy

The Veteran
Just to clarify, as long as the runners did something resembling tagging up, they should have been awarded home and third. Then, presuming the runner from second never corrected the error, a legal appeal should be upheld.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
What association were you playing? In USSSA, the correct call after all was said and done would be R1 called out for failing to complete their base running responsibilities and R2 placed at 2B. R1 would be awarded 2B and 3B on the overthrow, since 3B would be occupied, R2 could only be awarded 2B.
 

AG# 1

Member
Even on an overthrow, all runners must complete their baserunning responsibilities. This means that if they left early, they must go back, tag up, and touch the bases in proper order (both forward AND BACKWARD). Also, any runners behind them must not pass them.

If they don't complete their baserunning responsibilities, they are subject to appeal, as that runner found out.

another question, runner on 2nd left early and is heading to 3rd when ball was thrown out of play. runner on 1st tagged and advanced to 2nd--
can the defense make an appeal right away with the ball being thrown out of play?
and what if the runner realized it and was heading back to 2nd to tag up can he still do so while defense was appealing he left early? also can he go back and tag up with the runner from 1st standing on 2nd
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
another question, runner on 2nd left early and is heading to 3rd when ball was thrown out of play. runner on 1st tagged and advanced to 2nd--
can the defense make an appeal right away with the ball being thrown out of play?
and what if the runner realized it and was heading back to 2nd to tag up can he still do so while defense was appealing he left early? also can he go back and tag up with the runner from 1st standing on 2nd

In USA Softball, the runners must be given the opportunity to complete their baserunning responsibilities. Once that is done, the award is made. Once that is done, the defense may appeal while the ball is dead.
 

AG# 1

Member
In USA Softball, the runners must be given the opportunity to complete their baserunning responsibilities. Once that is done, the award is made. Once that is done, the defense may appeal while the ball is dead.

ok thx for the answer of the 1st part, but can he go back and tag up with the runner from 1st now standing on 2nd?
 

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
another question, runner on 2nd left early and is heading to 3rd when ball was thrown out of play. runner on 1st tagged and advanced to 2nd--
can the defense make an appeal right away with the ball being thrown out of play?
and what if the runner realized it and was heading back to 2nd to tag up can he still do so while defense was appealing he left early? also can he go back and tag up with the runner from 1st standing on 2nd

This would be a live ball appeal. The defense would have to either touch the base with the ball in their possession or tag the runner. This would have to be done BEFORE the ball went out of play. So, in this case it can't happen because obviously no one had possession of the ball once the outfielder threw the ball.
 

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
So to be clear if the runner left early and the ball went out of play when R1 was almost to third and he's halfway home when the defense starts yelling he left early, he can stop, run the bases in reverse, re-touch second and then go to third and home to score?
 

fthrmulcahy

The Veteran
What association were you playing? In USSSA, the correct call after all was said and done would be R1 called out for failing to complete their base running responsibilities and R2 placed at 2B. R1 would be awarded 2B and 3B on the overthrow, since 3B would be occupied, R2 could only be awarded 2B.

I am talking about USSSA. I am assuming that the phrase “left early” meant the runner from 2nd tagged up but left early. If he never went back I agree the award is 3rd, but according to our UIC if the runner attempted to tag up but left early you award the bases as if he had legally tagged up (which would be home). Otherwise, if he leaves a step early but you only award 3rd, you are basically informing the defensive team that the runner did, in fact, leave early before the defense appeals. And even worse, you’re informing the runner that he better come back and touch second base again before he goes to third.

Which, at the end of the day, is why the USSSA overthrow award sucks.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
I am talking about USSSA. I am assuming that the phrase “left early” meant the runner from 2nd tagged up but left early. If he never went back I agree the award is 3rd, but according to our UIC if the runner attempted to tag up but left early you award the bases as if he had legally tagged up (which would be home). Otherwise, if he leaves a step early but you only award 3rd, you are basically informing the defensive team that the runner did, in fact, leave early before the defense appeals. And even worse, you’re informing the runner that he better come back and touch second base again before he goes to third.

Which, at the end of the day, is why the USSSA overthrow award sucks.
Proper procedure is to announce "two base award" and let the players sort it out themselves. Then take action on any appeals made. It is never done this way, but that is what we are told is supposed to be done. I would direct the the lead the runner to 3B and the trail to 2B, see what they do and tell the coaches we can discuss between innings. At the higher levels they will know what is going on, and at the lower levels they probably aren't going to question it. I will post the question in a group with some of the best umpires in the country and report back what they say.
 

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
So to be clear if the runner left early and the ball went out of play when R1 was almost to third and he's halfway home when the defense starts yelling he left early, he can stop, run the bases in reverse, re-touch second and then go to third and home to score?
Yes, you are permitted to complete baserunning responsibilities during a dead ball period.

Almost all of the umpires I've asked this of have agreed the correct ruling is awarding the runners 3b and 2b. There is some disagreement about what to do from there. Some of them are going to tell the managers preemptively, some aren't saying a thing and honoring the appeal, some aren't saying a thing and not honoring an appeal. I just sent a message to the National UIC to see how he would like us to call it before we get into Championship season.
 

fthrmulcahy

The Veteran
Yes, you are permitted to complete baserunning responsibilities during a dead ball period.

Almost all of the umpires I've asked this of have agreed the correct ruling is awarding the runners 3b and 2b. There is some disagreement about what to do from there. Some of them are going to tell the managers preemptively, some aren't saying a thing and honoring the appeal, some aren't saying a thing and not honoring an appeal. I just sent a message to the National UIC to see how he would like us to call it before we get into Championship season.
Thanks for this...this is one time when U-Trip gets too cute with their rules and should just have the same overthrow award as every other ball-and-bat organization on the planet.
 
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