Any Delayed throw to first, runner touches the white base.

[vempyre]

Ball is hit back to the pitcher, it is deflected to the shortstop (doesn't leave the infield). The runner doesn't run through the orange bag but instead rounds the white bag. There was a throw to first and the runner was called out because he was on the white bag (or he was called out because he never touched the orange bag.

Right call?

Alternatively, what would happen if the runner just touched the white base and stood on it with a delayed throw coming in?

 

[Joker]

if there is a throw to first from the infield, the runner is running through the base, there is no reason for the 1B to go into foul territory, hit the safety bag

 

[vempyre]

if there is a throw to first from the infield, the runner is running through the base

The throw was made after the runner was on first, or after the runner thought there was be a play at first, hence the runner slowed and touched the white base (without running through).

Not sure what the 2nd part of your statement meant, the 1b was in fair territory.

 

[Joker]

the runner can go to the white bag if the throw takes the fielder into foul territory

so the guy just threw the ball over to first after the runner was on 1st and had stopped running? why?

 

[ureout]

The throw was made after the runner was on first, or after the runner thought there was be a play at first, hence the runner slowed and touched the white base (without running through).

Not sure what the 2nd part of your statement meant, the 1b was in fair territory.

if a play is being made on a B/R he must hit the orange bag unless he is avoiding a collision with the 1st baseman.....BUT in your scenario the B/R had an infield hit...and no play was made on him as he was advancing to 1st and then he even rounded the bag and then returned to 1st... then after returning to the bag a throw comes over and as he is standing on the bag and he is called out? bad call runner is safe

 

[vempyre]

the runner can go to the white bag if the throw takes the fielder into foul territory

so the guy just threw the ball over to first after the runner was on 1st and had stopped running? why?

Does it matter? Underestimated the guys speed, over estimated his arm? Runner may not be exactly on the bag waiting when the throw was thrown, but there was definitely no chance to get the runner on the play.

if a play is being made on a B/R he must hit the orange bag unless he is avoiding a collision with the 1st baseman.....BUT in your scenario the B/R had an infield hit...and no play was made on him as he was advancing to 1st and then he even rounded the bag and then returned to 1st... then after returning to the bag a throw comes over and as he is standing on the bag and he is called out? bad call runner is safe

There was definitely intention to round the base from the base runner (arc'ing out towards the fence instead of running straight through the bag). It is arguable whether he actually "rounded" touched the white bag, left and the come back because of the throw. Either way, would it have made a difference if he left the bag or not after he touched it?

 

[Joker]

Does it matter? Underestimated the guys speed, over estimated his arm? Runner may not be exactly on the bag waiting when the throw was thrown, but there was definitely no chance to get the runner on the play.

yes it does matter if he is standing on the bag or still running towards it. if he is still running towards the bag as the throw is being made, he must touch the safety bag unless the fielder gets pulled into foul territory

 

[vempyre]

yes it does matter if he is standing on the bag or still running towards it. if he is still running towards the bag as the throw is being made, he must touch the safety bag unless the fielder gets pulled into foul territory

So catch 22, how does the runner know if there will be a throw when they are 2 steps from the bag and the ball hasn't left the fielder's hands? The runner needs to make a decision whether to run through (orange bag) or round (white bag). I don't think you can round the orange bag can you?

 

[Joker]

the ss has the ball, where is he going?

 

[vempyre]

the ss has the ball, where is he going?

Does he have to go somewhere? 98% of the time they would "eat it" and go back to the pitcher.

 

[Joker]

but he didnt he made a throw

 

[Comp]

The runner is suppose to use the colored base, but, it is an appeal play that must be made by the defense prior to the runner returning to the base. If the runner was back on first and touching it when the throw arrived the runner is safe.

 

[Joker]

The runner is suppose to use the colored base, but, it is an appeal play that must be made by the defense prior to the runner returning to the base. If the runner was back on first and touching it when the throw arrived the runner is safe.

it is an appeal but everything after that is wrong

 

[Comp]

it is an appeal but everything after that is wrong

Really? May want to read a rule book. ASA 8-2-N Effect.

The batter-runner is out when there is a play being made at first base and the batter-runner touches only the white portion, provided the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to first base. Once the runner returns to the white or contrasting color portion of the base, an appeal shall not be honored.

 

[Joker]

read the usssa rule. says nothing about returning to the bag

 

[ureout]

read the usssa rule. says nothing about returning to the bag

i have to agree with Comp on this since O/P did not specify what org. 99% of the time ASA rules are quoted....not USSSA

 

[NCASAUmp]

Ahhhh... Gotta love it when "Any" is chosen for the particular ruleset, only to find out it's one of the major associations (ASA, USSSA, etc.)

So which is it, OP? Clue us in here so we can, I don't know, give you the right answer?

 

[Sully]

The 2015 USSSA rule book I found said this:

On the initial throw to first base from the infield or outfield, the batter-runner MUST TOUCH the red or orange portion of the base but not the white. If legally appealed by the defense during a live ball situation, the runner will be called out. The defensive player MUST always touch the white portion.

This play almost sounds like he hit it, it deflected towards the shortstop and the runner had time to not only reach safely but round the bag and take a few steps. Then the shortstop tried to throw to first to catch him still off the bag. If that's the case the umpire shouldn't have called him out unless the first baseman tagged him while off the bag. The rest of the rule has the same exceptions as ASA and even says:

EFFECT: If the base runner uses the orange portion at any time after the first attempt at first base and is not in contact with the white portion, then he is considered off the base.

So unlike ASA, it sounds like if there is a pickoff attempt, the runner can only go back to the white, not the orange. So if he wasn't standing on the white, he could be out.

 

[Joker]

i have to agree with Comp on this since O/P did not specify what org. 99% of the time ASA rules are quoted....not USSSA

why assume? he said any

 

[EAJuggalo]

Joker, you're still wrong. It is an appeal play but the appeal must be made by holding the ball on the base before the runner returns. I've already argued with the local UIC and the deputy state UIC about this rule this year.

 

[Joker]

and that is the same in all associations? because the USSSA rule has been posted and it says none of that

 

[vempyre]

Ahhhh... Gotta love it when "Any" is chosen for the particular ruleset, only to find out it's one of the major associations (ASA, USSSA, etc.)

So which is it, OP? Clue us in here so we can, I don't know, give you the right answer?

Sorry, the org would be SPN in Canada. I don't know
what set of rules they abide by but it's the big one here in Ontario. That's why I put "any".

 

[vempyre]

This play almost sounds like he hit it, it deflected towards the shortstop and the runner had time to not only reach safely but round the bag and take a few steps. Then the shortstop tried to throw to first to catch him still off the bag.

I think I was a bit unclear. It was also unclear but for the sake of the argument. Let's just say the runner did try to round the bag but did not (did not take the few steps off the bag) when he saw the throw coming. The intent of the throw was not pickoff (if intent is important in this situation).

 

[Joker]

you should be clear in what happened

 

[Wency]

Ball is hit back to the pitcher, it is deflected to the shortstop (doesn't leave the infield). The runner doesn't run through the orange bag but instead rounds the white bag. There was a throw to first and the runner was called out because he was on the white bag (or he was called out because he never touched the orange bag.

Right call?

Alternatively, what would happen if the runner just touched the white base and stood on it with a delayed throw coming in?

if there is a throw to first from the infield

 

[EAJuggalo]

USSSA Rule 6.11

Sec. 11. APPEALING WHILE THE BALL IS LIVE (before umpire calls “time”): Any fielder can appeal a runner once. During a live ball appeal, the defensive team must verbally state their appeal and touch the runner or the base which they are appealing. Ball is live and all runners may advance with liability of being put out.

 

[Joker]

that says nothing about not being able to appeal when they are back on the base though

 

[BretMan]

read the usssa rule. says nothing about returning to the bag

It's just a straight up missed base appeal, treated the same as any other base on the field.

If a runner was rounding third base, but failed to touch it, started toward home, stopped, then came back and stood on third, it would be too late for the defense to appeal that he missed third the first time by. Coming back to the base and touching it corrects the first baserunning error.

Same with the play at first base. It's treated as a missed base and once the runner comes back and touches the base he's corrected his error and it's too late to appeal it.

 

[Joker]

ASA specifically mentions that it must be made prior to the runner returning to the base though

The batter-runner is out when there is a play being made at first base and the batter-runner touches only the white portion, provided the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to first base. Once the runner returns to the white or contrasting color portion of the base, an appeal shall not be honored.

this is a safety issue is it not? that's the whole reason for the base to be there and why its called the "safety bag/base". in all honesty it shouldn't be an appeal, it should be an automatic out. kinda defeats the purpose of the safety aspect if you can still hit the inside bag and be considered safe

 

[ureout]

ASA specifically mentions that it must be made prior to the runner returning to the base though this is a safety issue is it not? that's the whole reason for the base to be there and why its called the "safety bag/base". in all honesty it shouldn't be an appeal, it should be an automatic out. kinda defeats the purpose of the safety aspect if you can still hit the inside bag and be considered safe

I agree... in fact SSUSA changed from an appeal to automatic out 2 yrs. ago...but in the O/P scenario the deflected ball and then the NO THROW by the S/S on the B/R advancing to 1st base .....since no play was being made on the B/R he can hit either base....and after making a turn then retreating back to 1st base he can also use either bag since both bags merge as 1 once B/R has attained 1st base safely