ASA Foul tip to catcher

ddd

ddd

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Playing in a tourney with no courtesy. First pitch, fouled back to catcher. Is there a certain height the ball must go to be considered an out? Or is there no height requirment as long as it is caught.. Playing ASA. Lmk if I need more info.
 
RDD15

RDD15

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No height requirement. The ball however, must have "perceptible arc" in order for a fielder to catch it for an out.

In my experience, "perceptible arc" is a tough term to get a definition for. To me, it would mean that the ball travels upward after it hits the bat, and then gravity begins to pull the ball downward before the catch. But thats my personal thought, and may not be the correct definition.
 
dttruax

dttruax

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From ASA Rules Supplement 22:

22. FOUL BALL / FOUL TIP
The reference of the “height of the batter’s head” as it relates to a Foul Ball and Foul Tip no longer applies. This change, instituted in 2006, allows more opportunity for the catcher to obtain “outs” by catching foul batted balls the same as the first and third base person who is playing closer to home plate. Umpires only need to judge whether the ball moves from the bat “sharply” and “directly” versus a ball that has a perceptible arc and / or if the catcher moves their glove / mitt to catch the ball after contact with the bat.

The definition of a foul ball has not changed. However, a foul tip is now defined as a batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catcher’s glove / mitt or hand and is legally caught by the catcher. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball remains live in Fast Pitch and Slow Pitch with stealing. It is not a catch if the ball rebounds off the catcher, unless the ball has first touched the catcher’s glove / mitt or hand. Again, a foul tip can only be caught by the
catcher. Examples of foul ball and foul tip follow:

A. A foul ball with “perceptible” arc goes toward the catcher’s left and the catcher moves their glove / mitt to catch the ball. In this situation, the batter is out and the ball remains live just as it would when any other fielder catches a foul fly ball.
B. The foul ball rebounds from the bat with a “perceptible arc” shoulder high and the catcher moves upward with the glove / mitt to make the catch. In this situation, the batter is out and the ball remains live just as it would when any other fielder catches a foul fly ball.
C. The pitcher throws a rise ball and the catcher is moving up as the pitch is on the way to home plate. The batter squares to bunt the
ball above their head and the ball goes in a straight line from the bat to the glove / mitt and the catcher catches the ball. In this situation, it is a foul tip. It does not matter that the ball is above the batter’s head. The only thing that matters when determining whether it is a foul tip is the fact that the ball goes directly from the bat to the catcher’s glove / mitt or hand and then is caught by the catcher.

Umpires must be alert to the fact that runners need to tag-up on a batted foul ball that is caught. This increases the opportunity for more “outs”, not only with the catcher catching the ball but the opportunity for more appeal plays with a runner leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. Remember, the runner must wait until “first touch” before breaking contact with a base on a caught fly ball, fair or foul. Runners may leave when the pitch is released in Fast Pitch and when the pitch reaches the front edge of home plate in
Slow Pitch with stealing, if the ball is judged to be a foul tip.
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ddd

ddd

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So as long as it has arc on it and is not one that comes off with speed it sounds like it would be an out? That's what is sounds like...

thanks guys..
 
dttruax

dttruax

Addicted to Softballfans
ddd said:
So as long as it has arc on it and is not one that comes off with speed it sounds like it would be an out? That's what is sounds like...

thanks guys..
Click to expand...

Yes.... unless it's the third strike....
 
sjury

sjury

The Old Man
ddd said:
Playing in a tourney with no courtesy. First pitch, fouled back to catcher. Is there a certain height the ball must go to be considered an out? Or is there no height requirment as long as it is caught.. Playing ASA. Lmk if I need more info.
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If there is no courtesy foul/swing, then a foul tip wouldn't matter, it'd be an out anyways. Unless I'm missing something.
 
sleepin4matty

sleepin4matty

Management Material
from what we follow here in so cal (SCMAF/ASA rules) all the umpires say the ball has to go over a batter's head to be assumed that a catch is an out
 
UptotheKnuckle

UptotheKnuckle

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Hebrew Hacker said:
If they're supposed to be going by ASA rules, they're wrong. Flat-out wrong.
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Scmaf local league rules do not abide by ASA rules. The only time they seems to follow asa rules are at tournaments. Local league scmaf have a whole bunch of bs rules for added "saftey" (i.e. slide or avoid if they are turning a double play. If you don't you are out and the batter is out. This is one of my local league rules)
 
BretMan

BretMan

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Even "back in the day", when there was something in the rule book about a batted ball going higher than the batter's head, the ruling from the SCMAF guys wouldn't be right.

There was NEVER any rule (and there still isn't) that said a batted ball had to travel any given height before it could be caught for an out. Any ball popped off the bat that has perceptible arc to it's path is considered the same as any other fly ball, anywhere else on the field. Just like any other batted fly ball, if it gets caught you're out- no matter how high the ball went!

What the old rule said was that if the ball did go higher than the batter's head, then it could never be ruled as a foul tip (which is something completely different than a batted fly ball). Many just misinterpreted the old rule and assumed that a pop up had to go head high to be caught for an out. But that was never the case.

I would challenge the SCMAF guys to find an actual rule in whatever rule book they're using that backs up what they're calling on this play.
 
T

TexasTransplant

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Actually played in an SPA (senior organization) tournament last week where we learned, to everybody's surprise (including the umpire) that the foul ball did have to be over the batter's head to be caught for an out (foul tip on 3rd strike excluded). Umpire called the out, opposing coach pulled out the SPA rule book and convinced the umpire and tournament director he was correct. I looked it up later and believe the opposing coach was correct for SPA. No idea why SPA has to have it's own unique rule on this.
 
T

TexasTransplant

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Gulf Coast Blue said:
I would bet as BretMan stated.....the rule was misinterpreted. It probably used the old ASA language.
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I don't know. Here's what I believe the appropriate section of the SPA rule book says:

Sec 27. FOUL TIP: A foul tip is a batted ball which goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter’s head, to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught by the catcher. A foul tip is a strike.
NOTE: If the ball goes higher than the batter’s head, and then is legally caught, the batter is out. (Foul Ball) If the ball does not go higher than the batter’s head, it is merely a foul tip.
 
Gulf Coast Blue

Gulf Coast Blue

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Wow......they took it up a notch.......lol

I do see a contradiction there.......What are SPA rules?

I am quite familiar with your area.....just not Slow Pitch.......Commuted to the Metroplex for about five years. Corporate office in FW and worked with call center training in Plano.
 
dttruax

dttruax

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Gulf Coast Blue said:
Wow......they took it up a notch.......lol

I do see a contradiction there.......What are SPA rules?

I am quite familiar with your area.....just not Slow Pitch.......Commuted to the Metroplex for about five years. Corporate office in FW and worked with call center training in Plano.
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It appears SPA is "Softball Players Association" which is "a fun and rewarding place to play" and is "a National organization promoting and sponsoring Senior Softball".... http://www.softballspa.com/spadata/

Not sure what their rules have to do with the OP's original post though.
 
BretMan

BretMan

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TexasTransplant said:
I don't know. Here's what I believe the appropriate section of the SPA rule book says:

Sec 27. FOUL TIP: A foul tip is a batted ball which goes directly from the bat, not higher than the batter’s head, to the catcher’s hands and is legally caught by the catcher. A foul tip is a strike.
NOTE: If the ball goes higher than the batter’s head, and then is legally caught, the batter is out. (Foul Ball) If the ball does not go higher than the batter’s head, it is merely a foul tip.
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My read on this is that all sections of the quoted rule pertain to "batted balls that go directly from the bat, to the catcher's hands".

That would put the rule right in line with ASA's old ruling, as well as the ruling of other softball or baseball rule sets that still have the "higher than the batter's head" clause.

In other words, this rule does NOT address batted balls that come of the bat with a perceptible arc. That's a whole 'nuther animal covered by completely different rules.
 
T

TexasTransplant

Addicted to Softballfans
BretMan said:
My read on this is that all sections of the quoted rule pertain to "batted balls that go directly from the bat, to the catcher's hands".

That would put the rule right in line with ASA's old ruling, as well as the ruling of other softball or baseball rule sets that still have the "higher than the batter's head" clause.

In other words, this rule does NOT address batted balls that come of the bat with a perceptible arc. That's a whole 'nuther animal covered by completely different rules.
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So a ball with a perceptible arc, even if it does not go over the batter's head, is a foul ball rather than a foul tip, and even under the old ASA rule the batter would be out if caught?

Would you care to make a guess as to what percentage of slow pitch umpires know that and will make that distinction?
 
C

Crabby Bob

Addicted to Softballfans
BretMan said:
Even "back in the day", when there was something in the rule book about a batted ball going higher than the batter's head, the ruling from the SCMAF guys wouldn't be right.

There was NEVER any rule (and there still isn't) that said a batted ball had to travel any given height before it could be caught for an out. Any ball popped off the bat that has perceptible arc to it's path is considered the same as any other fly ball, anywhere else on the field. Just like any other batted fly ball, if it gets caught you're out- no matter how high the ball went!

What the old rule said was that if the ball did go higher than the batter's head, then it could never be ruled as a foul tip (which is something completely different than a batted fly ball). Many just misinterpreted the old rule and assumed that a pop up had to go head high to be caught for an out. But that was never the case.

I would challenge the SCMAF guys to find an actual rule in whatever rule book they're using that backs up what they're calling on this play.
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Quoting from the 2013 SCMAF book:

Foul Tip: is a batted ball that goes directly to the catcher's hands, not rising higher than the batter's head, and is legally caught by any fielder. It is not a foul tip unless caught, and any foul tip that is caught is a strike and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand. A batted ball that rises higher than the batter's head shall be a foul ball. [my emphasis]
 
BretMan

BretMan

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Crabby Bob said:
Quoting from the 2013 SCMAF book:

Foul Tip: is a batted ball that goes directly to the catcher's hands, not rising higher than the batter's head, and is legally caught by any fielder. It is not a foul tip unless caught, and any foul tip that is caught is a strike and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand. A batted ball that rises higher than the batter's head shall be a foul ball. [my emphasis]
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1) Again, is this passage talking about only balls that are hit sharply and directly, or is it inclusive of balls hit with a perceptible arc.

So...if a batter hits the ball straight up, say, 10 feet high, and the catcher catches it...it's a foul ball? That can't be right.

That right there tells me that for each part of that rule to be TRUE, then you have to assume that it is refering ONLY to sharp and direct batted balls.

2) This passage doesn't fit the way we're being told SCMAF calls this, so I'm not sure if you posted it in response to my "challenge" or not. The earlier post stated that this would be called an out. The above rule says that it is a foul ball.
 
C

Crabby Bob

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BretMan said:
1) Again, is this passage talking about only balls that are hit sharply and directly, or is it inclusive of balls hit with a perceptible arc.

So...if a batter hits the ball straight up, say, 10 feet high, and the catcher catches it...it's a foul ball? That can't be right.

That right there tells me that for each part of that rule to be TRUE, then you have to assume that it is refering ONLY to sharp and direct batted balls.

2) This passage doesn't fit the way we're being told SCMAF calls this, so I'm not sure if you posted it in response to my "challenge" or not. The earlier post stated that this would be called an out. The above rule says that it is a foul ball.
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Not really a response to your challenge but rather to point out an absurdity in the rule. Sorry for not making that clear.

Note also that the "foul tip" can be caught by any fielder. :eek:
 
C

Crabby Bob

Addicted to Softballfans
jsam21238 said:
Where is that shown?
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Quoting from the 2013 SCMAF book:

Foul Tip: is a batted ball that goes directly to the catcher's hands, not rising higher than the batter's head, and is legally caught by any fielder. It is not a foul tip unless caught, and any foul tip that is caught is a strike and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand. A batted ball that rises higher than the batter's head shall be a foul ball.
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Not that it's right, just the way it's written.
 
eddieq

eddieq

The Great and Powerful Q
goro25 said:
Depending on who's up, sometimes we put or fifth infielder behind the plate.
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Umpire shouldn't allow the pitcher to pitch if there is more than the catcher positioned back there. Everyone needs to be in fair territory, except the catcher who must be in the catcher's box.
 
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