Hard cores are ruining USSSA softball

[TWmccoy]

Played a tourny here in CO yesterday. It wasn't really hot, but it wasn't cold either. Wind was blowing out hard at times. Most teams used hard core Pro Ms.

It became evident early that the team with the best bat control would win the tourny. Never in my life have I seen so many DBOs and long HRs on absolutely pathetic swings. I saw multiple 400'+ HRs on fluffy, mis hit flyballs. After a while it became a "chop fest" of guys trying to slap the ball into the ground to keep it in the yard.

In C we got 5 HRs, and probably averaged 6 DBO on top of that per game. Other teams were faring no better. A D team on an adjacent field hit their 3 HRs in the 1st inning, then hit 6 inning ending DBOs (they lost, shocker).

Honestly, unless you're on a full sized baseball field in hot/humid conditions the hard core is just WAY too much ball. It's sucking the fun out of the game. I also saw some teams hitting middle hard to try to keep the ball in as well. Eventually a pitcher's going to get smashed with one of these balls and be seriously hurt or killed.

The bats AND balls in USSSA are WAAAYYY too hot right now.

 

[hitless45]

Or is it more like UTRIP ruining softball.

 

[Slim45]

I am a pitcher in a rec league, and the first time a team used hard cores against us I asked the league manager to ban them. Since he will not, our team now uses them as it is a disadvantage not to. We play in Missouri, so most of the year it makes a huge difference compared to normal Classic M or Pro M.

I used to pitch with just a Rip It mask, but I got a hell cat helmet and shin guards for this year because they hard cores scare me. We play too low of a level for guys to have great bat control. Usually there were only one or two balls a year that came close to me that were hard enough to scare me since most were miss hits. Last fall when the hard cores came out it was more like one or two a game since the miss hits are still rockets.

 

[TWmccoy]

I am a pitcher in a rec league, and the first time a team used hard cores against us I asked the league manager to ban them. Since he will not, our team now uses them as it is a disadvantage not to. We play in Missouri, so most of the year it makes a huge difference compared to normal Classic M or Pro M.

I used to pitch with just a Rip It mask, but I got a hell cat helmet and shin guards for this year because they hard cores scare me. We play too low of a level for guys to have great bat control. Usually there were only one or two balls a year that came close to me that were hard enough to scare me since most were miss hits. Last fall when the hard cores came out it was more like one or two a game since the miss hits are still rockets.

With hard cores infielders have no time to react or get to balls. I saw all sorts of hard grounders just to the side of fielders that would normally be fielded easily. With hard cores they got by them in a blink.

I purposely brought a few regular ZN Pro Ms, and I wish I had brought more. Having a deader ball in the game is a big advantage at times.

 

[Slim45]

Classic M GDEs were the ball of choice around here prior to the hard cores. I still keep some good ones in my bag so on days the hard cores are too much I can throw those in and the guys can still swing away.

 

[ilyk2win]

I purposely brought a few regular ZN Pro Ms, and I wish I had brought more. Having a deader ball in the game is a big advantage at times.

ZN's will hardly be the solution if it's below 80* Deader than Pro M, but still very hard esp the colder it is

 

[D-ROCK13]

But they sound and feel so good off the bat

 

[Hiltz]

Our league is going back to Classic+ and wood bats this year, I'm actually looking forward to playing again.

 

[stang7222]

Our league is going back to Classic+ and wood bats this year, I'm actually looking forward to playing again.

I'd love to play in a league like that but I feel like participation would be too low to field more than a handful of teams.

 

[TWmccoy]

I'd love to play in a league like that but I feel like participation would be too low to field more than a handful of teams.

Every once in a while here in CO USSSA will try to run a wood bat tourny. No one ever signs up, and I think they've finally given up on it. Years ago there would be a couple wood bat tournies a year, and people were enthusiastic for them. It was a true feat of strength to hit a HR.

Now they don't even try to hold wood bat events. Guys are scared of using any bat that doesn't provide instant results/gratification.

BTW, .52 300 balls and wood bats is actually a decent combo. HRs can be hit. Wood bats and classic Ms would be absolutely miserable.

On a side note, hitting Hard Cores with wood bats isn't too bad. They'll fly decent if you get some spin on them and find the barrel.

 

[ilyk2win]

Played another tourney here in NJ where the TD used 2 different balls for the same tourney.......what I fathom were the "bad batch" Pro M's on 2 fields and Classic M's (2 diff brands) on the other 2 fields (1 of which wind was blowing out to CF hard) in windy 45ish degree weather. 240 bats with testing. I have no idea why the use of 2 vastly different balls, but a guess would be that he has a bunch of the "bad batch" and doesn't want to take the L in the finances column.

The Pro M's felt and sounded mushy and did not travel well at all.....few if any HR's hit. In fairness, the wind was mostly blowing in from CF on 1 field and from RF to 3B on the other field. Several balls died long before the fences and even gap shots would get cut off prior to making the fences.

The Classic M's (didn't matter which brand) were night and day better than the Pro M's. Scores on both fields with these balls were extremely higher than the scores on the fields with the Pro M's. On the field with the wind blowing out to CF, tons of HR's and no-doubters......was more comical than anything. Just the feel of cold Classic M's was insane. That ball should never be used in temps below 70*.

 

[TWmccoy]

Played another tourney here in NJ where the TD used 2 different balls for the same tourney.......what I fathom were the "bad batch" Pro M's on 2 fields and Classic M's (2 diff brands) on the other 2 fields (1 of which wind was blowing out to CF hard) in windy 45ish degree weather. 240 bats with testing. I have no idea why the use of 2 vastly different balls, but a guess would be that he has a bunch of the "bad batch" and doesn't want to take the L in the finances column.

The Pro M's felt and sounded mushy and did not travel well at all.....few if any HR's hit. In fairness, the wind was mostly blowing in from CF on 1 field and from RF to 3B on the other field. Several balls died long before the fences and even gap shots would get cut off prior to making the fences.

The Classic M's (didn't matter which brand) were night and day better than the Pro M's. Scores on both fields with these balls were extremely higher than the scores on the fields with the Pro M's. On the field with the wind blowing out to CF, tons of HR's and no-doubters......was more comical than anything. Just the feel of cold Classic M's was insane. That ball should never be used in temps below 70*.

Dudley definitely put out a few "bad batches" of Pro Ms a couple years ago. Those balls were flat out terrible, and got even worse when the temps went up.

I haven't seen bad Pro Ms lately. Everything I've hit in the past couple seasons has been really good.

Classic Ms are at their best in the cold. When it gets really hot they generally die quite a bit. Classic Ms are absolute bricks, and destroy bats in anything under about 70 degrees.

I'm surprised you still get balls provided for your tournies. Here in CO teams have to buy/bring their own Pro Ms. You're allowed to use any brand, and if the ball sucks it's your own fault.

 

[stang7222]

Played another tourney here in NJ where the TD used 2 different balls for the same tourney.......what I fathom were the "bad batch" Pro M's on 2 fields and Classic M's (2 diff brands) on the other 2 fields (1 of which wind was blowing out to CF hard) in windy 45ish degree weather. 240 bats with testing. I have no idea why the use of 2 vastly different balls, but a guess would be that he has a bunch of the "bad batch" and doesn't want to take the L in the finances column.

The Pro M's felt and sounded mushy and did not travel well at all.....few if any HR's hit. In fairness, the wind was mostly blowing in from CF on 1 field and from RF to 3B on the other field. Several balls died long before the fences and even gap shots would get cut off prior to making the fences.

The Classic M's (didn't matter which brand) were night and day better than the Pro M's. Scores on both fields with these balls were extremely higher than the scores on the fields with the Pro M's. On the field with the wind blowing out to CF, tons of HR's and no-doubters......was more comical than anything. Just the feel of cold Classic M's was insane. That ball should never be used in temps below 70*.

Did you guys even finish the tournament or did the rain end things early? Pilla moved E to Hamilton then the town shut down the fields at 5pm Friday.

 

[ilyk2win]

Did you guys even finish the tournament or did the rain end things early? Pilla moved E to Hamilton then the town shut down the fields at 5pm Friday.

He did his best to get to 4 teams knowing the rain was going to shorten it. Unfortunately, our game was the last one in that round and we were only in the bottom of the 2nd inning when it was called. The fields were bad and it was the correct call......timing just should have been sooner and IMO that game should never have even started. No-win situation, bc half the players were gonna complain no matter what he did at that point.

One rumor circulating was that one particular deep pocketed sponsor/coach was the one insisting games continue to be played. JP adamantly denied that to me, but I had several players from multiple teams say they heard it directly as that sponsor/coach was saying it. IDC - meaningless March tourney....we got 3+ games in with a new squad.....was adequate for me in 40* temps with heavy wind and rain. My body would have been better off with just 2 games TBH.

 

[stang7222]

He did his best to get to 4 teams knowing the rain was going to shorten it. Unfortunately, our game was the last one in that round and we were only in the bottom of the 2nd inning when it was called. The fields were bad and it was the correct call......timing just should have been sooner and IMO that game should never have even started. No-win situation, bc half the players were gonna complain no matter what he did at that point.

One rumor circulating was that one particular deep pocketed sponsor/coach was the one insisting games continue to be played. JP adamantly denied that to me, but I had several players from multiple teams say they heard it directly as that sponsor/coach was saying it. IDC - meaningless March tourney....we got 3+ games in with a new squad.....was adequate for me in 40* temps with heavy wind and rain. My body would have been better off with just 2 games TBH.

How does your squad look so far? I know it's a small sample size but you've been around long enough

 

[jbo911]

Dudley definitely put out a few "bad batches" of Pro Ms a couple years ago. Those balls were flat out terrible, and got even worse when the temps went up.

I haven't seen bad Pro Ms lately. Everything I've hit in the past couple seasons has been really good.

Classic Ms are at their best in the cold. When it gets really hot they generally die quite a bit. Classic Ms are absolute bricks, and destroy bats in anything under about 70 degrees.

I'm surprised you still get balls provided for your tournies. Here in CO teams have to buy/bring their own Pro Ms. You're allowed to use any brand, and if the ball sucks it's your own fault.

This is the only place I differ from you. I hate the classic Ms so much that I'd rather face hard cores than classic Ms. Most of our league games and tournies up here are below 70 degrees though. Could be a big part of it.

We couldn't hit hard cores last year even at worlds. I didn't care from a hit hard cores perspective, but I hate getting to a tournament and learning the Tuesday before I can only hit what they're selling.

This year, so far, they're allowing Dudley and worth, but no stadiums. The fact that they list stadiums as if they're a legal ball to begin with troubles me. I blame worth as much as anyone for that. Gold dot used to mean 44 cor, then they put it on all their balls.

 

[TWmccoy]

This is the only place I differ from you. I hate the classic Ms so much that I'd rather face hard cores than classic Ms. Most of our league games and tournies up here are below 70 degrees though. Could be a big part of it.

We couldn't hit hard cores last year even at worlds. I didn't care from a hit hard cores perspective, but I hate getting to a tournament and learning the Tuesday before I can only hit what they're selling.

This year, so far, they're allowing Dudley and worth, but no stadiums. The fact that they list stadiums as if they're a legal ball to begin with troubles me. I blame worth as much as anyone for that. Gold dot used to mean 44 cor, then they put it on all their balls.

IMO, Hard core Pro Ms are every bit as good (maybe even a bit better) than stadium balls. I swear they come off the bat harder, and cut through the air faster.

In theory, Worth should call any classic M a Gray Dot rather than Gold Dot. IDK why they confuse people with that crap either.

 

[ilyk2win]

How does your squad look so far? I know it's a small sample size but you've been around long enough

Looks promising. I am happy with the construct thus far; no egos bigger than the team. There will be a learning curve for sure with half these guys moving up from E, but that's part of why I'm there I suppose. Easy to look good while winning; the real character of a team is shown when adversity hits. Small sample size, but down 12-0 before batting, hitting Classic M's in 40* with the wind blowing straight out to CF 15-30 mph....team responds by being down only 1 in the bottom of the 2nd w/o hitting a single HR yet, bases loaded with 1 out when the tourney gets called.

 

[Slim45]

We had our first league games this week and it was about 60 degrees out. The team we played was hitting HCs with broke in Tantums since our league doesn't compression test. The first game of the double header was pretty low scoring since it was everyone's first game back, but once they got warmed up in the second game they were struggling to keep the ball in the park. They eventually had to switch to other Pro Ms and use older bats because they were hitting 1-2 DBOs every inning.

 

[TWmccoy]

We had our first league games this week and it was about 60 degrees out. The team we played was hitting HCs with broke in Tantums since our league doesn't compression test. The first game of the double header was pretty low scoring since it was everyone's first game back, but once they got warmed up in the second game they were struggling to keep the ball in the park. They eventually had to switch to other Pro Ms and use older bats because they were hitting 1-2 DBOs every inning.

Where do you live? Honestly, I feel like even in FL Hard Cores are just too much ball.

In CO they're absolutely ludicrous.

 

[Slim45]

Where do you live? Honestly, I feel like even in FL Hard Cores are just too much ball.

In CO they're absolutely ludicrous.

Kansas City. It's amazing how much the game changes here from spring to summer to fall. With Classic Ms the number of home runs changed dramatically through the year since we play in temps anywhere from 40 with 30% humidity to 100 with 90% humidity. Even the Pro M and Classic+ don't go anywhere in the summer, but the HCs fly no matter what.

 

[TWmccoy]

Kansas City. It's amazing how much the game changes here from spring to summer to fall. With Classic Ms the number of home runs changed dramatically through the year since we play in temps anywhere from 40 with 30% humidity to 100 with 90% humidity. Even the Pro M and Classic+ don't go anywhere in the summer, but the HCs fly no matter what.

Yeah, classic Ms can be the worst softballs imaginable if it's really hot out. They feel like mush and don't go anywhere even when you smash them. I think the advent of those balls is what made bat shaving popular years ago.

C+s at least have a little jump on them regardless of heat.

Hard Cores are the real deal in terms of performance in any conditions.

 

[EAJuggalo]

DV was the bad batch of balls for all formulations. 2022 the teams were begging to use the EC ProM's being hit in the C rather than the DV Stadiums for the Men's Major. There are still a number of boxes of the DVs out there, I know Illinois was giving a dozen to each team at state and selling them also. Wouldn't surprise me if Pilla had a bunch in NJ too, he's the director for IL also.
My take is that you should be able to use any legal ball and put in the rule book that Stadiums can only be used on fields larger than 350' and Hard Cores can only be used on fields larger than 325'. What really pisses me off is stuff like WA, you are only allowed to use one ball that you have to buy from the state director at a large markup for all the tournaments. If you're going to dictate the ball to that degree, you should be providing the balls.

 

[ilyk2win]

Balls in USSSA tourneys here are always an issue. Multiple HR's permitted but one new ball per game and then what seems to be a 4 y/o BP ball as the backup. Not uncommon to have multiple versions/manufacturers of a Classic M in the same game as well. One year, balls were not going anywhere except when a ball stamped Black American was thrown in; it was the only ball hit for HR's and would randomly make an appearance in the game - and almost immediately be hit for a HR. This past weekend, 1st game of the day, ball hit out of play so another NEW ball was put into play. When the foul ball came back in from out of play, the umpire insisted we change the ball back immediately, said it was a new ball and not a backup ball and "we don't do that" so the OG ball had to be put back into play in the middle of the same inning. FFS, just let us BYOB and hit new pearls all day if we so choose.

 

[TWmccoy]

Balls in USSSA tourneys here are always an issue. Multiple HR's permitted but one new ball per game and then what seems to be a 4 y/o BP ball as the backup. Not uncommon to have multiple versions/manufacturers of a Classic M in the same game as well. One year, balls were not going anywhere except when a ball stamped Black American was thrown in; it was the only ball hit for HR's and would randomly make an appearance in the game - and almost immediately be hit for a HR. This past weekend, 1st game of the day, ball hit out of play so another NEW ball was put into play. When the foul ball came back in from out of play, the umpire insisted we change the ball back immediately, said it was a new ball and not a backup ball and "we don't do that" so the OG ball had to be put back into play in the middle of the same inning. FFS, just let us BYOB and hit new pearls all day if we so choose.

Yeah, I remember when the tourny directors here used to provide balls. It was pretty much as you describe. 1 new ball to start the game, and after it was gone there was no telling what kind of trashed-ass used ball horror you were in for. The director would lose dozens of balls per tourny due to weeds and theft. About 8 years ago they finally lowered tourny prices a little and mandated that teams bring their own balls. No problems since. Now you're allowed to use any Pro M you want.

Funny thing is, very few teams fetch their own balls. I probably find more balls after tournies now than I did when directors provided them. Softballs are also about $80/doz now.

Having all sorts of different balls used in a tourny is BS as well. When I'm hitting I at least want to know what kind of ball I'm dealing with.

 

[DirtBag215]

Said it before and I’ll say it again. USSSA should go to 52’s. I feel like it’s a no brainer but there’s **** I probably don’t know about beyond the politics of USSSA

 

[TWmccoy]

Said it before and I’ll say it again. USSSA should go to 52’s. I feel like it’s a no brainer but there’s **** I probably don’t know about beyond the politics of USSSA

I've said this for years. For whatever reason USSSA scoffs at using .52s. I mean, you can still get classic + balls, but hardly anyone uses them.

.52s are the only ball that keeps things fair and balanced across varying weather conditions. Plus, they are way less dangerous than other balls if they hit someone. Also, they don't damage bats.

 

[DirtBag215]

I've said this for years. For whatever reason USSSA scoffs at using .52s. I mean, you can still get classic + balls, but hardly anyone uses them.

.52s are the only ball that keeps things fair and balanced across varying weather conditions. Plus, they are way less dangerous than other balls if they hit someone. Also, they don't damage bats.

I agree with everything you said

 

[ilyk2win]

But then Monsta would rule the world

 

[jbo911]

I've said this for years. For whatever reason USSSA scoffs at using .52s. I mean, you can still get classic + balls, but hardly anyone uses them.

.52s are the only ball that keeps things fair and balanced across varying weather conditions. Plus, they are way less dangerous than other balls if they hit someone. Also, they don't damage bats.

It's only one if two possibilities in my mind.
1, they sold their product on better competition because we allow hotter equipment, and they're afraid going with what asa choose years ago would undermine that.

2, they listen to the crybabies that complain about bad hops who in reality are afraid they won't hit as many homeruns.

I think it's that simple.