Interference during double play attempt

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Wayne 33

Banned User
EAJuggalo said:
Maybe, just maybe you should actually read what you quote before attacking someone's intelligence and reading comprehension. What I said was, "If I feel you threw at the runner intentionally, you will be ejected." No where in there was there an accusation. Show me where in any of the major associations there is a must slide rule. You can't, it doesn't exist at the adult level and will not.

A good second baseman will make the turn at 2nd in less than a half second. We have all seen runners that can't process the fact they are out and get out of the way that quickly, they also are not out until the call has been made. I don't know how you call things, but on my fields I don't start making a call until there is one to make. Which means that most of the time on a DP ball, the runner hasn't actually been called out until after the throw is by them.

Interference requires an act of interference, it does not have to be intentional but doing exactly what the runner is supposed to do is not an act of interference.

My point is that you can believe whatever you want, you are being paid to officiate the game according to rules laid out for you. All of those rulesets that I am aware of, say that a runner running directly to the base is NOT interference. Show me where it says otherwise and I'll be more than happy to look.

A wise man once told me there is a great difference between a guy with 20 years of experience and a guy with one year of experience 20 times, I think we all know which one of those you fit in to.

And you can talk about the great baseball players you've umpired over the years when they were kids, I can talk about the MLB All-Stars I played baseball with. We're on a slowpitch softball forum talking about slowpitch, what are you doing now. Like Irish posted above, he's done multiple nationals, I've done multiple nationals, a Worlds and I currently umpire the best slowpitch players in the world in Conference USSSA. We are all telling you something, that every clinic and evaluator you've ever had should be telling you to. Every UIC you've ever had should be ruling against you on a protest, and if you are that fixated on being this wrong about it, they should finish the game for you since obviously you aren't qualified to do it yourself.
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You haven't stated one rule. There is no magic lane for the runner to run in from point A to point B. Someone said if you're trying to avoid the throw and get hit with the throw, the runner interfered. You've never seen me play any middle infield position, but you tell me I don't how. Judgment calls aren't protestable. Do you advise an infielder to call the police when a runner makes a hard slide and injures the fielder?

I've been trained by people whose jock you couldn't hold. And I'm not talking about umpiring a sport where the umpire wears shorts and a Polo shirt.

Perhaps if you would let me finish what I said, "IF A RUNNER CAN'T AT LEAST MAKE IT HALFWAY TO FIRST OR LESS AND GETS HITS WITH THE THROW I AM RULING INTERFERENCE! They've had plenty of time to get out of the way of the throw. The onus is not completely on the fielder.

If that is so hard for you to understand, perhaps you should cease blowing yourself kisses in the mirror whilst posting personal attacks. Good umpires check their egos at the door. This IS NOT a competition. It is a discussion forum.

FYI ~ That 20 years experience line is older than your mother's underwear.
 
EAJuggalo

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
Wayne 33 said:
You haven't stated one rule. There is no magic lane for the runner to run in from point A to point B. Someone said if you're trying to avoid the throw and get hit with the throw, the runner interfered. You've never seen me play any middle infield position, but you tell me I don't how. Judgment calls aren't protestable. Do you advise an infielder to call the police when a runner makes a hard slide and injures the fielder?

I've been trained by people whose jock you couldn't hold. And I'm not talking about umpiring a sport where the umpire wears shorts and a Polo shirt.

Perhaps if you would let me finish what I said, "IF A RUNNER CAN'T AT LEAST MAKE IT HALFWAY TO FIRST OR LESS AND GETS HITS WITH THE THROW I AM RULING INTERFERENCE! They've had plenty of time to get out of the way of the throw. The onus is not completely on the fielder.

If that is so hard for you to understand, perhaps you should cease blowing yourself kisses in the mirror whilst posting personal attacks. Good umpires check their egos at the door. This IS NOT a competition. It is a discussion forum.

FYI ~ That 20 years experience line is older than your mother's underwear.
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You haven't posted any rules either, all of the respected umpires here have told you that you're wrong. So I am going to post the rule, and admit I was incorrect in a previous post.
USSSA Rule 8.5.B
B. When the base runner interferes with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball or intentionally interferes with a fielder catching a ball or throwing a ball, or with a thrown ball. EFFECT Sec. 5. B. If the interference is not ruled intentional; the batter-runner is entitled to go to first base. If, in the opinion of the umpire, the interference is an obvious attempt to prevent a double play, the immediate succeeding runner shall also be called out. When a base runner interferes after he is out or after scoring, the most advanced runner shall be declared out.
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Interference on a thrown ball must be intentional. The ruling from the National Director of Officiating for USSSA is that running from base to base is not intentional interfering with the runner throwing the ball or with a thrown ball, but veering out of the baseline is an intentional act that can be considered interference.

I didn't say you didn't know how to play, NC did, but I agree with his point emphatically. Anyone that is throwing down a line directly from 2B to 1B and not off to the side, is playing the position wrong. Every instructor of stick and ball games I've ever heard, read or seen all instruct middle infielders to either step through the bag or push back off of it to make that throw.

Judgement calls aren't protestable, but misapplication of the rules is. The appeal would come when the manager asked what the intentional act of interference was that you called and your response is that they didn't make it easier on the defense? I have no idea what your response would be, but unless you lied about it, it would be protestable.

If I feel that the runner intentionally attempted to injure the fielder, I will absolutely make that clear as I'm tossing the runner from the game.

I've been trained by some of the best umpires in USSSA. Which is one of the two major organizations in the sport we are talking about here. Who you've been trained by in another sport isn't really all that relevant but if you want to post their names so we know and can all check them out feel free. If you'd like I'll do the same. You want to knock the fact that we wear shorts. Ok, on that I actually agree with you, and I think I only wore shorts for one tournament last year. All the rest we were required to wear pants. I was fully in approved uniform for every game I umpired.

I have not prevented you from finishing a post. I would really appreciate if you would stick to one scenario though. Your previous posts were speaking of the runner coming in to 2B and not getting out of the way. Now in this post you're talking about the runner not getting more than halfway. Personally if I knew I was going to be out and had no chance of making the base, I would crouch down. I've also seen a lot of guys at all levels that peel off, the MI drops or bobbles the ball and the runner would have been safe if they would have kept going straight in.

The onus is not completely on the fielder. The onus on the runner is to do what they are supposed to be doing and not intentionally interfere with the fielder throwing the ball or the throw itself. The onus on the fielder is to get the ball to where they want it to be without hitting the runner.

Good umpires check their ego at the door. They also enforce all of the rules, not just those they agree with. There are a few rules I don't agree with, but I do what I'm supposed to do and call the game the way the rules have been interpreted. Great umpires also learn all they can and are willing to admit when they are wrong. I've done that in the field, and I've had the best players in the game come up and thank me for admitting it and working to get better.

A wise man told it to me, I have no idea where he got it from. I would hope that line is older than my mother's underwear, it was told to me 10 years ago.
 
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Wayne 33

Banned User
NCASAUmp said:
If you're throwing straight from 2B to 1B and not off to one side or another, you're playing your position wrong.
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I have two World Series rings from NABA and MSBL in Phoenix and World Champion ring from Dalton, GA. You' re merely projecting.
 
Sully

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
This is how some guy named Cal Ripken teaches shortstops to make the double play. Notice in every situation he clears the bag and steps off to the side. I heard he knows something about playing the position. In both scenarios in the video if the runner runs directly to the bag, he doesn't get hit. I'm guessing this is also because the fielder doesn't want to get taken out by stepping in the middle of the base with his momentum going directly towards the sliding runner. I post this out of sheer amusement.

 
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Wayne 33

Banned User

I remember when they used to have to throw from right field almost because the runner slid so far out of the basepath. The umpires also allowed the phanthom tag of the base too. Often times the runner got out of the way instead of eat the ball. There has been a few times I've stepped on the base with my front foot and thrown from behind the base. So what's your point? Let me guess.
 
Sully

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
The point was good mechanics are to sidestep the baseline between 1st and 2nd so the base path should be safe to stay in more than peeling off
 
U

ureout

The Veteran
haven't you guys figured it out yet?? Mr. ( "I have two World Series rings from NABA and MSBL in Phoenix and World Champion ring from Dalton, GA. ) he doesn't ever post an actual rule from a rule book he just cites the rules from Wayne's World rule book.. on sale now at amazon
 
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Wayne 33

Banned User
ureout said:
haven't you guys figured it out yet?? Mr. ( "I have two World Series rings from NABA and MSBL in Phoenix and World Champion ring from Dalton, GA. ) he doesn't ever post an actual rule from a rule book he just cites the rules from Wayne's World rule book.. on sale now at amazon
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After reading your question regarding interference, I can only conclude you are very inexperienced. That and you haven't a clue about awarding bases when a runner is obstructed.

I distinctly recall the time you went from 15 years of experience to 20 years in the span of two days. I've caught you in other lies, also.

Besides, teaching you anything is like teaching a rock to swim.
 
W

Wayne 33

Banned User
EAJuggalo said:
You haven't posted any rules either, all of the respected umpires here have told you that you're wrong. So I am going to post the rule, and admit I was incorrect in a previous post.
USSSA Rule 8.5.B
Interference on a thrown ball must be intentional. The ruling from the National Director of Officiating for USSSA is that running from base to base is not intentional interfering with the runner throwing the ball or with a thrown ball, but veering out of the baseline is an intentional act that can be considered interference.

I didn't say you didn't know how to play, NC did, but I agree with his point emphatically. Anyone that is throwing down a line directly from 2B to 1B and not off to the side, is playing the position wrong. Every instructor of stick and ball games I've ever heard, read or seen all instruct middle infielders to either step through the bag or push back off of it to make that throw.

Judgement calls aren't protestable, but misapplication of the rules is. The appeal would come when the manager asked what the intentional act of interference was that you called and your response is that they didn't make it easier on the defense? I have no idea what your response would be, but unless you lied about it, it would be protestable.

If I feel that the runner intentionally attempted to injure the fielder, I will absolutely make that clear as I'm tossing the runner from the game.

I've been trained by some of the best umpires in USSSA. Which is one of the two major organizations in the sport we are talking about here. Who you've been trained by in another sport isn't really all that relevant but if you want to post their names so we know and can all check them out feel free. If you'd like I'll do the same. You want to knock the fact that we wear shorts. Ok, on that I actually agree with you, and I think I only wore shorts for one tournament last year. All the rest we were required to wear pants. I was fully in approved uniform for every game I umpired.

I have not prevented you from finishing a post. I would really appreciate if you would stick to one scenario though. Your previous posts were speaking of the runner coming in to 2B and not getting out of the way. Now in this post you're talking about the runner not getting more than halfway. Personally if I knew I was going to be out and had no chance of making the base, I would crouch down. I've also seen a lot of guys at all levels that peel off, the MI drops or bobbles the ball and the runner would have been safe if they would have kept going straight in.

The onus is not completely on the fielder. The onus on the runner is to do what they are supposed to be doing and not intentionally interfere with the fielder throwing the ball or the throw itself. The onus on the fielder is to get the ball to where they want it to be without hitting the runner.

Good umpires check their ego at the door. They also enforce all of the rules, not just those they agree with. There are a few rules I don't agree with, but I do what I'm supposed to do and call the game the way the rules have been interpreted. Great umpires also learn all they can and are willing to admit when they are wrong. I've done that in the field, and I've had the best players in the game come up and thank me for admitting it and working to get better.

A wise man told it to me, I have no idea where he got it from. I would hope that line is older than my mother's underwear, it was told to me 10 years ago.
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How about you get behind the plate and work 300 pitches with temperatures in the high 90's for about 3 hours before you start shooting off your mouth?

If I rule interference, that's not open for interpretation. If some UIC thinks that judgment is a misinterpretation of the rules, he is a dumbass as far as I'm concerned. If that's what they want, then the dumb SOB runner better not even flinch even slightly or I'm banging him out.

Don't worry about me. I can handle myself on the field just fine. I'm not one to criticize another umpire's mistakes or missed calls. Sounds like you're another one of those Internet loudmouths that thinks they're infallible with their English essay posts
 
W

Wayne 33

Banned User
EAJuggalo said:
You haven't posted any rules either, all of the respected umpires here have told you that you're wrong. So I am going to post the rule, and admit I was incorrect in a previous post.
USSSA Rule 8.5.B
Interference on a thrown ball must be intentional. The ruling from the National Director of Officiating for USSSA is that running from base to base is not intentional interfering with the runner throwing the ball or with a thrown ball, but veering out of the baseline is an intentional act that can be considered interference.

I didn't say you didn't know how to play, NC did, but I agree with his point emphatically. Anyone that is throwing down a line directly from 2B to 1B and not off to the side, is playing the position wrong. Every instructor of stick and ball games I've ever heard, read or seen all instruct middle infielders to either step through the bag or push back off of it to make that throw.

Judgement calls aren't protestable, but misapplication of the rules is. The appeal would come when the manager asked what the intentional act of interference was that you called and your response is that they didn't make it easier on the defense? I have no idea what your response would be, but unless you lied about it, it would be protestable.

If I feel that the runner intentionally attempted to injure the fielder, I will absolutely make that clear as I'm tossing the runner from the game.

I've been trained by some of the best umpires in USSSA. Which is one of the two major organizations in the sport we are talking about here. Who you've been trained by in another sport isn't really all that relevant but if you want to post their names so we know and can all check them out feel free. If you'd like I'll do the same. You want to knock the fact that we wear shorts. Ok, on that I actually agree with you, and I think I only wore shorts for one tournament last year. All the rest we were required to wear pants. I was fully in approved uniform for every game I umpired.

I have not prevented you from finishing a post. I would really appreciate if you would stick to one scenario though. Your previous posts were speaking of the runner coming in to 2B and not getting out of the way. Now in this post you're talking about the runner not getting more than halfway. Personally if I knew I was going to be out and had no chance of making the base, I would crouch down. I've also seen a lot of guys at all levels that peel off, the MI drops or bobbles the ball and the runner would have been safe if they would have kept going straight in.

The onus is not completely on the fielder. The onus on the runner is to do what they are supposed to be doing and not intentionally interfere with the fielder throwing the ball or the throw itself. The onus on the fielder is to get the ball to where they want it to be without hitting the runner.

Good umpires check their ego at the door. They also enforce all of the rules, not just those they agree with. There are a few rules I don't agree with, but I do what I'm supposed to do and call the game the way the rules have been interpreted. Great umpires also learn all they can and are willing to admit when they are wrong. I've done that in the field, and I've had the best players in the game come up and thank me for admitting it and working to get better.

A wise man told it to me, I have no idea where he got it from. I would hope that line is older than my mother's underwear, it was told to me 10 years ago.
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So U-Trip has a rule about unintentional interference? It is either interference or it is not. Per your former director, the runner can take a step off the base, get hit with a throw, and all is good and well in slo-pitch softballandia? The former UIC needs to buy a clue.

Two things you can't buy on the Internet, good timing and good judgment. No wonder you can be replaced by a robot.

Nice to see you changed your whole tagline just for me.
 
U

ureout

The Veteran
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He's back
 
ilyk2win

ilyk2win

Addicted to Softballfans
EAJuggalo said:
If the runner attempts to get out of the way and then gets in the way of the throw we have an act of interference, running from base to base is not an act of interference on a throw. I'll tell you right now if I think you threw into the runner on purpose, you will be ejected and I will encourage the runner to notify law enforcement. If you call me out for not vacating the base path, I will win the protest. I got this direct from the former director of officials for USSSA.

Here is your biggest problem, you have your beliefs on what the rules should be or what the interpretations should be. But you are not in a position to make those interpretations. It is your responsibility to call those rules as directed by the national/world offices. When we all tell you the correct ruling, a good umpire would take that information and incorporate it into their game, not just complain about it and say they won't call it.
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So I just got back from USSSA Military Worlds and had this exact scenario happen in the WB Finals. Fast runner on 1B, is close to 2B when the out is recorded, ducks (running straight to 2B), middle infielder dots him on the forehead with the ball. Player knocked silly/out briefly. Play suspended to tend to player. During suspension, umpire tells me he has to rule a double play. I ask if it was due to interference, which he said yes.

As soon as play resumes, I call time (no pitch thrown), ask the umpire if in his judgement the player intentionally interfered, which he responded no. So then I stated I would like to protest a misinterpretation of the interference call. Director is called over, who in turn calls for the UIC (who they say "wrote the book" on the rules). He talks to umpire first, then me. I explain to him my protest is that the player has the right to the base line, not only did he not intentionally interfere, but even ducked while still in the baseline, and that he cannot simply disappear after being called out. UIC tells me that I am wrong and that the player "has to slide or veer." I reiterate that the only place on the field the runner has a "right" to is the baseline, which is where he was. He again said "slide or veer." I ask him to cite the rule he was referencing. He said he didn't know it off the top of his head, but he would go research it and get back to me but was NOT changing the ruling. I said that as the UIC's ruling that I understood that I had to accept it at that point and move on, but I'd like to know the exact rule or portion of the rule book that supporting his ruling - after the game. He agreed we'd have that discussion..

We were the last game of the night, and of course he was nowhere to be found afterwards. I reminded the directors that he owed me that information and I'd be back in the morning (our next game). Of course the next day (only top 4 teams return) he had already left......so never an explanation.

At no point was there hostility on either side, other than maybe the umpire who in a 65 minutes timed WBF game said he was not stopping the clock for the protest. Cost me an out and at a minimum of 1 run (the batter) but probably more as we hit a bit with 2 outs. Sucks to lose a close one that way, especially when the game is called after 5 innings due to time.
 
D

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
There is not a specific rule which sites this. Hence all of the confusion. Most rule sets will leave this to the umpires judgement. "If you see interference then call it.". I would prefer to have a rule similar to the batter "actively hindering" in the batter's box. The runner must actively hinder the defender meaning he/she has to something like veer off or throw up the hands, etc. Any umpire who tells a runner they must slide for any reason is looking for a lawsuit.
 
EAJuggalo

EAJuggalo

Addicted to Softballfans
ilyk2win said:
So I just got back from USSSA Military Worlds and had this exact scenario happen in the WB Finals. Fast runner on 1B, is close to 2B when the out is recorded, ducks (running straight to 2B), middle infielder dots him on the forehead with the ball. Player knocked silly/out briefly. Play suspended to tend to player. During suspension, umpire tells me he has to rule a double play. I ask if it was due to interference, which he said yes.

As soon as play resumes, I call time (no pitch thrown), ask the umpire if in his judgement the player intentionally interfered, which he responded no. So then I stated I would like to protest a misinterpretation of the interference call. Director is called over, who in turn calls for the UIC (who they say "wrote the book" on the rules). He talks to umpire first, then me. I explain to him my protest is that the player has the right to the base line, not only did he not intentionally interfere, but even ducked while still in the baseline, and that he cannot simply disappear after being called out. UIC tells me that I am wrong and that the player "has to slide or veer." I reiterate that the only place on the field the runner has a "right" to is the baseline, which is where he was. He again said "slide or veer." I ask him to cite the rule he was referencing. He said he didn't know it off the top of his head, but he would go research it and get back to me but was NOT changing the ruling. I said that as the UIC's ruling that I understood that I had to accept it at that point and move on, but I'd like to know the exact rule or portion of the rule book that supporting his ruling - after the game. He agreed we'd have that discussion..

We were the last game of the night, and of course he was nowhere to be found afterwards. I reminded the directors that he owed me that information and I'd be back in the morning (our next game). Of course the next day (only top 4 teams return) he had already left......so never an explanation.

At no point was there hostility on either side, other than maybe the umpire who in a 65 minutes timed WBF game said he was not stopping the clock for the protest. Cost me an out and at a minimum of 1 run (the batter) but probably more as we hit a bit with 2 outs. Sucks to lose a close one that way, especially when the game is called after 5 innings due to time.
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I would be very interested in who the umpires for the game were and who the UIC was. To my understanding the National UIC was not in Columbus this weekend, he was at home in Cincinnati. The guy who actually wrote the book no longer works for USSSA and is whom I got my ruling from last year. If you'd like to PM me with the time, date and field of the game along with the division I will look into it. I will also bring it up with the regional UIC's I know before next season.
 
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