Any Protest issue

[hookumsnivy]

So I'm buddies w/ the head ump in our league and he has to deal w/ an interesting protest situation due to one of his umps.

Not sure about all the details because neither of us actually saw it:

Bases loaded 0 outs.
Batter hits a pop up. The 2nd baseman catches the ball (not sure where and not sure if infield fly was called, but it doesn't matter). Runner on 3rd tags and tries to score.
2nd baseman throws home, catcher gets the ball with his foot on the plate and the ump mistakenly calls OUT! The runner touches home without being tagged because the catcher stopped after the call. Catcher had the ball before the runner touched the plate, and probably would have been tagged the runner, but you never know.

The team immediately protests the call because it was a tag play and not a force. To make matters worse the team lost by 1 run.

Obviously the ump screwed up big time, and knew it immediately after making the call.
Ignore the fact that the runner was stupid for tagging up on a ball that an infielder caught especially with less than 2 outs.

How do you deal w/ the protest?
If you uphold the protest, how do you continue? Where do you put the runners? How many outs? etc.
If you deny the protest, what is your explanation other than you deserve it for tagging on that play?

 

[RDD15]

I am not sure that this is a protestable play. Protests are in regards to rule interpretations I believe. This was a mistake by the ump, and not a rule that was applied incorrectly. Could be wrong though.

 

[lumps25]

I am not sure that this is a protestable play. Protests are in regards to rule interpretations I believe. This was a mistake by the ump, and not a rule that was applied incorrectly. Could be wrong though.

You are correct out/safe are judgement calls, not protestable events. The ump should have ate crow and reversed his call, but sometimes the play happens so fast, you just blow it.

 

[Jbird11]

Yeah, I think you can appeal the play to the umpire... give him a chance to reverse his judgment call... but you can't protest them.. You can only protest rule interpretations...not judgement calls.

 

[irishmafia]

So I'm buddies w/ the head ump in our league and he has to deal w/ an interesting protest situation due to one of his umps.

Not sure about all the details because neither of us actually saw it:

Bases loaded 0 outs.
Batter hits a pop up. The 2nd baseman catches the ball (not sure where and not sure if infield fly was called, but it doesn't matter). Runner on 3rd tags and tries to score.
2nd baseman throws home, catcher gets the ball with his foot on the plate and the ump mistakenly calls OUT! The runner touches home without being tagged because the catcher stopped after the call. Catcher had the ball before the runner touched the plate, and probably would have been tagged the runner, but you never know.

The team immediately protests the call because it was a tag play and not a force. To make matters worse the team lost by 1 run.

Obviously the ump screwed up big time, and knew it immediately after making the call.
Ignore the fact that the runner was stupid for tagging up on a ball that an infielder caught especially with less than 2 outs.

How do you deal w/ the protest?
If you uphold the protest, how do you continue? Where do you put the runners? How many outs? etc.
If you deny the protest, what is your explanation other than you deserve it for tagging on that play?

The out on the batted ball should be recorded. The umpires incorrect applicaton of the force out is grounds for protest.

R1 should have been returned to 3B since IF it was determined (which the OP insinuates) that the botched call placed the defense in jeopardy. ASA 10.3.C

 

[hookumsnivy]

The ump considered an out, and the run didn't score, so it the defense that got the benefit.

 

[baldgriff]

This is not a protestable call. Unfortunately it is a judgement call. The ump could just as easily say, "I have a tag" and be done with it. Now if he knew he blew the call, the time to man up and get it right was before the next pitch. However, because that didnt happen, this is now a "judgement call" as to whether he saw a tag or not.

Sucks for the offensive team, but there is no protest here.

 

[NCASAUmp]

This is not a protestable call. Unfortunately it is a judgement call. The ump could just as easily say, "I have a tag" and be done with it. Now if he knew he blew the call, the time to man up and get it right was before the next pitch. However, because that didnt happen, this is now a "judgement call" as to whether he saw a tag or not.

Sucks for the offensive team, but there is no protest here.

You're ASSUMING he said it was a tag.

If the umpire says he called it out as a "force out," then it is not a judgment call. It's a rule interpretation/application issue, and is subject to protest.

 

[johnsonrod]

which one of you is lying???? im guessing its the person who isnt citing a rule

The out on the batted ball should be recorded. The umpires incorrect applicaton of the force out is grounds for protest.

R1 should have been returned to 3B since IF it was determined (which the OP insinuates) that the botched call placed the defense in jeopardy. ASA 10.3.C

This is not a protestable call. Unfortunately it is a judgement call. The ump could just as easily say, "I have a tag" and be done with it. Now if he knew he blew the call, the time to man up and get it right was before the next pitch. However, because that didnt happen, this is now a "judgement call" as to whether he saw a tag or not.

Sucks for the offensive team, but there is no protest here.

 

[NCASAUmp]

which one of you is lying???? im guessing its the person who isnt citing a rule

I think I'll defer to Irish's judgment on this one.

 

[baldgriff]

Here is the problem on this one. And again we dont have all of the details.

If the umpire "knew" he blew this one, then he had the opportunity to fix the call at the time. I dont ump ASA, and Im not going to go out to find the rules on baserunner is out. At this point, we dont have out that is a "force", we have an out that was recorded as a non-force. This is then a judgement call, determination of if the player was safe by tag or force, is judgement.

So, in essence the team's protest is saying hey "He missed the tag" (which is not protestable). Trying to say the umpire didnt apply the force rule is a stretch here, because it is based on the fact that there was no force - AND No Tag. The person ruling on this cant know what the ump saw or if there was a tag.

If the ump says, I have a tag its done and there is nothing that can be done. Its judgement call.

 

[hookumsnivy]

He didn't rule it a tag. He mistakenly ruled it a force out. He knew he made a mistake after he called it, but it had already affected the play. The catcher stopped and didn't bother tagging the runner at this point.

To me, it seems like it should be subject to protest.
This leads me to the next question...what is the outcome. Based solely on the information I've been given, I would assume the protest stands. But what is the outcome?
Does the run count? Do you put the runner back on 3rd? What do you do?

 

[hookumsnivy]

The ump told the head ump he knew he messed up. Said he knew it immediately but it was too late.
How do you fix the call at the time? The catcher didn't tag him because he was already called out. Are you going to penalize the defense for listening to the ump?

 

[baldgriff]

OK then I need to back track here, because I misunderstood.

If the umpire is stating I called a force and there was no tag, then yes, I would also enforce the out on the Infield Fly and then put R3 back on the base.

At any rate, the ump on the field should have slowed down and figured out a fair and equitable solution.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Either way, the umpire and/or UIC will get someone upset either way they rule.

My take on this situation is:
If the infield fly WAS called, then there's no excuse for the defense not applying the tag on the runner coming home. Batter-runner is out, score the run, tell the defense to go learn how to make tags and give me a break.

If the infield fly WASN'T called, then the umpire's actions put both the defense AND offense in jeopardy (which is what Irish was talking about earlier). The defense thought that they didn't have to tag the runner going home, and the offense thought the batter-runner wasn't out, which creates a force situation at home.

If the latter is the case, then I'll second what Irish said earlier: call the infield fly and retire the batter-runner (which is what it sounds like it should have been), and put the runner back on third base. The runner, in all likelihood, would never have attempted to advance had they known that the infield fly had been called.

Is it perfect? No.

Is that as good as it will get for both teams involved? I believe so.

 

[hookumsnivy]

Agreed. The ump should have done something. He screwed up big time.

Either way, one of the teams is getting screwed because of it.

 

[hookumsnivy]

Why does the call of the infield fly matter? The catch was made and the runner from 3rd was tagging up.

This is why as a player I make the play no matter what, just in case something crazy happens.
A few weeks ago I was playing 3rd with a runner coming towards me. I get the throw and reach to tag the runner (who tries to go around me). I "tagged" him but the ball is in my other hand. The ump mistakenly called him out (3rd out) because of the "tag" (though he could have argued he ran out of the baseline). I ran after the guy until he went into his dugout because I knew he wasn't really out.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Why does the call of the infield fly matter? The catch was made and the runner from 3rd was tagging up.

Ah yes... And this time, I'M the one guilty of not reading enough.

Since the runner tagged up and advanced at his/her own risk, the defense needed to tag the runner. Period.

I'd score the run and remove the out on the "force out" at the plate. Continue play from there.

I don't see why the umpire couldn't correct his call right then and there. Doesn't seem like this affected any other runners.

 

[hookumsnivy]

He definitely should have corrected his call, but he blew it big time. He blew the call and then didn't deal w/ the situation correctly. I'm speculating here, but I would guess the UIC won't schedule him for as many games as normal.

I can't argue with the reasoning because the catcher should have known better.
At the same time it's penalizing the defense for listening to the ump. Not sure how much I like that either.
There's really no good solution to this. But either way the team on offense will be happy. Either he gets put back on 3rd w/ 1 out or the run scores w/ 1 out.

It's a shame these things happen.
This is why the UIC had stressed during the umpires meeting that often delaying a call for a second or 2 is better than making a quick call and getting it wrong.

 

[NCASAUmp]

He definitely should have corrected his call, but he blew it big time. He blew the call and then didn't deal w/ the situation correctly. I'm speculating here, but I would guess the UIC won't schedule him for as many games as normal.

I can't argue with the reasoning because the catcher should have known better.
At the same time it's penalizing the defense for listening to the ump. Not sure how much I like that either.
There's really no good solution to this. But either way the team on offense will be happy. Either he gets put back on 3rd w/ 1 out or the run scores w/ 1 out.

It's a shame these things happen.
This is why the UIC had stressed during the umpires meeting that often delaying a call for a second or 2 is better than making a quick call and getting it wrong.

This is something that has been repeated over and over again at various state, regional and National clinics.

You'll make better calls if you slow the calls down.

 

[irishmafia]

Why does the call of the infield fly matter? The catch was made and the runner from 3rd was tagging up.

It doesn't and really isn't part of the discussion

A few weeks ago I was playing 3rd with a runner coming towards me. I get the throw and reach to tag the runner (who tries to go around me). I "tagged" him but the ball is in my other hand. The ump mistakenly called him out (3rd out) because of the "tag" (though he could have argued he ran out of the baseline).

Don't think so. You just stated the ball wasn't in your glove, so there is no "tag" to avoid. Besides, there is no rule for leaving the base line.

 

[hookumsnivy]

It doesn't and really isn't part of the discussion



Don't think so. You just stated the ball wasn't in your glove, so there is no "tag" to avoid. Besides, there is no rule for leaving the base line.

I had the ball, but when he tried to go around me (out of the baseline) I reached to tag him with the ball in my glove and my free hand securing the glove so the ball couldn't come out, but I couldn't reach him with the ball. My free hand "tagged" (notice the quotes - not using the word touch to avoid all the stupid jokes) him. Had he not gone out of the baseline to avoid the tag it was an easy out.
The point of the post was that I knew the runner wasn't really tagged even though the ump called it, and I kept going to make sure I got the out. Ump asked me why I was still trying to tag the runner w/ the ball after I called him out, so I told him I didn't tag him w/ the ball yet. The players should know the rules so even if there is a mistake that could potentially be overturned it won't hurt them.

 

[irishmafia]

I had the ball, but when he tried to go around me (out of the baseline) I reached to tag him with the ball in my glove and my free hand securing the glove so the ball couldn't come out, but I couldn't reach him with the ball. My free hand "tagged" (notice the quotes - not using the word touch to avoid all the stupid jokes) him. Had he not gone out of the baseline to avoid the tag it was an easy out.

Ahh....a little clarification. Obviously, anyone would have to see it, but I understand your comment. However, there still isn't a rule for going out of the baseline.

The point of the post was that I knew the runner wasn't really tagged even though the ump called it, and I kept going to make sure I got the out. Ump asked me why I was still trying to tag the runner w/ the ball after I called him out, so I told him I didn't tag him w/ the ball yet. The players should know the rules so even if there is a mistake that could potentially be overturned it won't hurt them.

Absolutely, you play what you know, not what could be assumed.

Thank you.

 

[hookumsnivy]

Ahh....a little clarification. Obviously, anyone would have to see it, but I understand your comment. However, there still isn't a rule for going out of the baseline.

While the USSSA rulebook doesn't use the words "base line", there is a rule for it:
See Rule 8, Section 5, Effect O:

Sec. 5. BASE RUNNERS ARE OUT under the following circumstances

O. When running toward any base, he runs more than 3 feet from a direct line
between a base and the base he is trying for to avoid being tagged with the ball
in the hands of a fielder.

I had the ball and I was trying to tag him, so this rule would have applied.

 

[NCASAUmp]

While the USSSA rulebook doesn't use the words "base line", there is a rule for it:
See Rule 8, Section 5, Effect O:

Sec. 5. BASE RUNNERS ARE OUT under the following circumstances

O. When running toward any base, he runs more than 3 feet from a direct line
between a base and the base he is trying for to avoid being tagged with the ball
in the hands of a fielder.

I had the ball and I was trying to tag him, so this rule would have applied.

Irish is tripping you up a little here. The correct term is "base path," not "base line."

The base line is a perfectly straight line drawn between the bases.
The base path is the path that the runner takes when running the bases.

 

[irishmafia]

While the USSSA rulebook doesn't use the words "base line", there is a rule for it:
See Rule 8, Section 5, Effect O:

Sec. 5. BASE RUNNERS ARE OUT under the following circumstances

O. When running toward any base, he runs more than 3 feet from a direct line
between a base and the base he is trying for to avoid being tagged with the ball
in the hands of a fielder.

I had the ball and I was trying to tag him, so this rule would have applied.

Okay, now you want to add another parameter of a specific rule set. But read the wording. It makes absolutely no sense. "Direct line between a base and the base"? Or is the runner expected to run back to a base line after rounding a base? Chief, can you explain this wording?

Well, speaking ASA

Base Path: A line directly between a base and the runner's position at the time a defensive player is attempting to tag that runner.

The runner is out: When running to any base in regular or reverse order and the runner runs more than three feet from the base path to avoid being touched by the ball in the hand(s) of a fielder.

 

[hookumsnivy]

I agree, the wording in the USSSA rule book is terrible. I definitely like the explanation in the ASA rule book better.
Apparently I used the wrong term. So to correct what I said - the runner should have been automatically out for deviating more than 3 feet from the base path.

I find the ASA rulebook to be more exact in a lot of situations. Though I must say that I hate that the ASA book (at least the 1 I've seen) combines fast pitch and slow pitch. Keep the books separate! Makes reading it much easier.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I agree, the wording in the USSSA rule book is terrible. I definitely like the explanation in the ASA rule book better.
Apparently I used the wrong term. So to correct what I said - the runner should have been automatically out for deviating more than 3 feet from the base path.

I find the ASA rulebook to be more exact in a lot of situations. Though I must say that I hate that the ASA book (at least the 1 I've seen) combines fast pitch and slow pitch. Keep the books separate! Makes reading it much easier.

Without trying to get into bashing one association over another, I've found that USSSA tends to "assume" that everyone knows exactly what they mean. I've found that their ruleset has a lot of holes big enough to drive a truck through. As an umpire, I find this to be quite frustrating, as leaving too much to individual interpretation tends to create an environment of inconsistency, and it sets umpires up to fail. It's even written in their rules for pitching that umpires shouldn't get too caught up in the details. Wait... What?!

ASA, on the other hand, is much more deliberate in what they say (or sometimes what they don't say) when writing their rules. Their rules, while requiring a bit of experience with some "legalese," are a lot more airtight than other rulesets. It creates a much more favorable environment for all 40,000+ umpires across the US to become consistent with each other.

 

[hookumsnivy]

Without trying to get into bashing one association over another, I've found that USSSA tends to "assume" that everyone knows exactly what they mean. I've found that their ruleset has a lot of holes big enough to drive a truck through. As an umpire, I find this to be quite frustrating, as leaving too much to individual interpretation tends to create an environment of inconsistency, and it sets umpires up to fail. It's even written in their rules for pitching that umpires shouldn't get too caught up in the details. Wait... What?!

ASA, on the other hand, is much more deliberate in what they say (or sometimes what they don't say) when writing their rules. Their rules, while requiring a bit of experience with some "legalese," are a lot more airtight than other rulesets. It creates a much more favorable environment for all 40,000+ umpires across the US to become consistent with each other.

I agree completely. I've never umped ASA but I read through most of the rule book when I joined an ASA league. It is much more exact.
I really HATE the fact that they mixed the slow pitch, fast pitch and modified rules into the same rule book. That's just a source for confusion.

 

[CountryFinacial]

Any Protest

Infield Fly runner advance at their own risk, the runner has to be tagged OUT.....