Other SSUSA Commitment Line

[yance]

SSUSA has a rule that once you pass the commitment line (approx. 30 ft from home plate) he must continue home and it is a force play. You can not tag the runner or he is safe. So bags loaded one out ground ball hit third he steps on third and starts to chase the runner from third toward home. The runner stops right before the commitment line. As the third baseman is about to tag him he steps over the line just before he is tagged.
a) In my opinion he should be safe.
b) If he is safe, is the play over or can third throw to the catcher on home to force him out?

 

[NCASAUmp]

SSUSA has a rule that once you pass the commitment line (approx. 30 ft from home plate) he must continue home and it is a force play. You can not tag the runner or he is safe. So bags loaded one out ground ball hit third he steps on third and starts to chase the runner from third toward home. The runner stops right before the commitment line. As the third baseman is about to tag him he steps over the line just before he is tagged.
a) In my opinion he should be safe.
b) If he is safe, is the play over or can third throw to the catcher on home to force him out?

A) He is safe. Once he crosses the line, he can not be tagged out by the defense.
B) In ASA, once the defense has attempted a tag on a runner past the commitment line, he can not be put out, even if the defense throws home before the runner gets there. SSUSA's language in their rules are similar in that it says "the runner will be called safe," but you would have to ask them for clarification. It does say that the ball remains live, but I can see them going either way in their interpretation as to whether or not the defense has lost their opportunity to get that runner out.

 

[yance]

I was the third baseman in the situation and the ump called him out before I threw to the catcher. I wasn't sure of the rule so I didn't argue. Guess now I'll have to enlighten the ump if it happens again. Thanks.

 

[ureout]

once the runner passes the commitment he cannot be tagged out...if a defensive player makes a tag past the line the umpire should immediately call the runner safe...and yes this remains a live ball

 

[A Salt Weapon]

That's pretty heads up on the base runners part.

 

[ddoubler]

That's pretty heads up on the base runners part.

this is what I was thinking

 

[TruBlu13]

I work ASA, NFHS and NCAA. What the hel* is a commitment line?

 

[BretMan]

I work ASA, NFHS and NCAA. What the hel* is a commitment line?

I'm sure this isn't in the NFHS or NCAA book. But for ASA, refer to 8-9-D. It's a senior slow pitch thing, used in conjunction with the double home plate.

 

[jfsully]

Interesting play today ... Runner from third goes over the commitment line, stops (probably intending to go back) and falls and is then tagged. His body fell on the commitment line.
Is he out?
If he had gone back over the commitment line (towards third) and is tagged is he out?

 

[NCASAUmp]

Interesting play today ... Runner from third goes over the commitment line, stops (probably intending to go back) and falls and is then tagged. His body fell on the commitment line.
Is he out?
If he had gone back over the commitment line (towards third) and is tagged is he out?

Speaking ASA...

I'd have to see him clearly go back over the line for me to call him out. There's nothing that says that the runner can't stop. Doing so puts him at a huge disadvantage, as the defense now has more time to make the throw home.

Now, here's the thing. The runner can stop, but can the runner step back? The ASA rule says that once the runner has crossed the commitment line, "the runner cannot return to third base." Does this mean that he's out once he takes a step back? Or does the runner actually have to cross back over the commitment line? Common sense says that he can step back, and that the runner is not to be called out unless he actually crosses back over. I'm double-checking with the higher-ups on that one.

But if he has already crossed the commitment line, then the defense can't tag him. Period. He'll be called safe, and he can no longer be put out.

Now, speaking SSUSA...

All of the above applies as well, but I just wanted to note that SSUSA spells out that if the runner does head back towards third after crossing the commitment line, he must cross back over the line before he's to be called out.

 

[jfsully]

It will be interesting to see the conclusion for this. Thanks for the assistance.
Once the runner goes past the commitment line, he cannot go back to third base and be safe BUT is he AUTOMATICALLY out if he recrosses the commitment line?
I was thinking this is similar to a situation when a batter hits the ball and runs towards first, and the first baseman fields the ball in between First and home. The runner cannot reverse and go home (to be safe) BUT is the batter/runner AUTOMATICALLY out if he runs towards home?

(I know in SSUSA he is automatically out for recrossing the line but this was ASA

 

[lefty# 9]

Wow that's a smart play on the runners part BUT to be the Devils advocate He was caught before getting home. ( A )what happens if you stop. straddling the line and lift the leg that's better benefits your situation what's the call then ? or is passing the commitment line the touching of only a single leg across.( Interpretation the mother of all fu** ups ) RULES state can not be tagged after passing the com line or runner is safe. I believe this is in place to remove unnecessary impact to both players BUT the rule states after you pass does that means your hole body or breaking the plain of the line ??? this should be the ???? don't you think. just saying HAPPY NEW YEAR

 

[A Salt Weapon]

We use a commitment line in co-ed up here. My understanding and what I've seen called is once one foot touches past the commitment line, the runner is "commited". I have never seen a runner called out immediately for turning back, however I have seen on a few occasions the runner called out once the catcher touches the plate with possesion of the ball even while the runner is back on third. I have also seen a runner cross the commitment line, fake back to third, get the defense to throw to third, recross the line and score before the ball got to the catcher. The call on that play was safe run scores, and I got a few atta-boys afterwards.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Wow that's a smart play on the runners part BUT to be the Devils advocate He was caught before getting home. ( A )what happens if you stop. straddling the line and lift the leg that's better benefits your situation what's the call then ? or is passing the commitment line the touching of only a single leg across.( Interpretation the mother of all fu** ups ) RULES state can not be tagged after passing the com line or runner is safe. I believe this is in place to remove unnecessary impact to both players BUT the rule states after you pass does that means your hole body or breaking the plain of the line ??? this should be the ???? don't you think. just saying HAPPY NEW YEAR

If any part of your body touches the ground past the commitment line, you're considered to have crossed the commitment line. If you return to third base, you're automatically out, and the ball remains live.

A good runner will stop shy of the commitment line, wait for the defense to commit to tagging them, then step across before the tag.

 

[NCASAUmp]

It will be interesting to see the conclusion for this. Thanks for the assistance.
Once the runner goes past the commitment line, he cannot go back to third base and be safe BUT is he AUTOMATICALLY out if he recrosses the commitment line?
I was thinking this is similar to a situation when a batter hits the ball and runs towards first, and the first baseman fields the ball in between First and home. The runner cannot reverse and go home (to be safe) BUT is the batter/runner AUTOMATICALLY out if he runs towards home?

(I know in SSUSA he is automatically out for recrossing the line but this was ASA

Ehhh... Not exactly. The batter-runner is only out if he steps backwards towards home to avoid being tagged. If no one is attempting to tag him, then he can run in loopty-loops from home to first for all we care.

 

[Taprootgft]

Speaking ASA...

I'd have to see him clearly go back over the line for me to call him out. There's nothing that says that the runner can't stop. Doing so puts him at a huge disadvantage, as the defense now has more time to make the throw home.

Now, here's the thing. The runner can stop, but can the runner step back? The ASA rule says that once the runner has crossed the commitment line, "the runner cannot return to third base." Does this mean that he's out once he takes a step back? Or does the runner actually have to cross back over the commitment line? Common sense says that he can step back, and that the runner is not to be called out unless he actually crosses back over. I'm double-checking with the higher-ups on that one.

But if he has already crossed the commitment line, then the defense can't tag him. Period. He'll be called safe, and he can no longer be put out.

Now, speaking SSUSA...

All of the above applies as well, but I just wanted to note that SSUSA spells out that if the runner does head back towards third after crossing the commitment line, he must cross back over the line before he's to be called out.

Did you ever get an answer on that? Also if permitted to run back toward third without crossing the line could a runner who has crossed the line not turn around and run into a defensive player who still had not thrown the ball home to cause contact with the ball in glove/ball in hand so that the defensive player "tags" them to attempt to be safe? Seems like an iffy gray area with a lot being put on the plate umpire on intent.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Did you ever get an answer on that? Also if permitted to run back toward third without crossing the line could a runner who has crossed the line not turn around and run into a defensive player who still had not thrown the ball home to cause contact with the ball in glove/ball in hand so that the defensive player "tags" them to attempt to be safe? Seems like an iffy gray area with a lot being put on the plate umpire on intent.

I got a response, but there was something that wasn't 100% clear about it. I'll see this person on Saturday, so I should have an answer by that afternoon.

If a runner were to intentionally run into a defensive player like that, it'd probably be pretty obvious, and I would not give the runner the same protection from being put out.

 

[Jomatty]

This is the first I've ever heard of a commitment line but it sounds like a super irritating rule, if it can be exploited like that. I get the purpose but it seems that they should make a rule to keep players from stopping just short of the line and stepping over at the last second hoping to get tagged.

 

[NCASAUmp]

This is the first I've ever heard of a commitment line but it sounds like a super irritating rule, if it can be exploited like that. I get the purpose but it seems that they should make a rule to keep players from stopping just short of the line and stepping over at the last second hoping to get tagged.

You want to penalize the offense for executing a proper, legal, heads-up play?

 

[Joker]

kinda like trying to make contact with a fielder during a rundown?

 

[yance]

Speaking ASA...

I'd have to see him clearly go back over the line for me to call him out. There's nothing that says that the runner can't stop. Doing so puts him at a huge disadvantage, as the defense now has more time to make the throw home.

Now, here's the thing. The runner can stop, but can the runner step back? The ASA rule says that once the runner has crossed the commitment line, "the runner cannot return to third base." Does this mean that he's out once he takes a step back? Or does the runner actually have to cross back over the commitment line? Common sense says that he can step back, and that the runner is not to be called out unless he actually crosses back over. I'm double-checking with the higher-ups on that one.

But if he has already crossed the commitment line, then the defense can't tag him. Period. He'll be called safe, and he can no longer be put out.

Now, speaking SSUSA...

All of the above applies as well, but I just wanted to note that SSUSA spells out that if the runner does head back towards third after crossing the commitment line, he must cross back over the line before he's to be called out.

"The runner can not go back to third base." could mean that he can head back across the commitment line but can not touch the bag. Depends on how you read the quote.

 

[NCASAUmp]

"The runner can not go back to third base." could mean that he can head back across the commitment line but can not touch the bag. Depends on how you read the quote.

I agree. I should get the authoritative answer Saturday, as I hope to see one of the UICs for that particular National.

 

[jfsully]

thanks for your getting the definitive answer on this. Its one of those plays you never think you'll see ..... then you do.

 

[ureout]

"The runner can not go back to third base." could mean that he can head back across the commitment line but can not touch the bag. Depends on how you read the quote.

I can only attest to SSUSA on this but part (b) says the runner must continue home.....therefore if he turned and went back across the line he should be immediately called out. 1.15 • COMMITMENT LINE
A three foot commitment line shall be marked across and perpendicular to the
foul line and placed twenty feet from home plate. Once a runner has crossed
the commitment line he: (a) cannot return to third base; (b) must continue
home; (c) can no long be tagged out by the defensive player; the defensive player must touch the strike zone mat

 

[NCASAUmp]

As promised, I spoke with one of the UICs for the Senior Slow Pitch National, and his response differs slightly from SSUSA.

If the runner crosses the commitment line, turns, and then attempts to return to 3rd base, he should immediately be called out, even if he has yet to recross the commitment line.

The rationale is simple - why does he need to go back to third for any reason? Once he's crossed the commitment line, he's committed to running to the scoring plate, so any attempt to return to third base is illegal.

So if, in the judgment of the umpire, the runner has already crossed the commitment line and he attempts to return to third base, he should immediately be called out.

 

[ureout]

As promised, I spoke with one of the UICs for the Senior Slow Pitch National, and his response differs slightly from SSUSA.

If the runner crosses the commitment line, turns, and then attempts to return to 3rd base, he should immediately be called out, even if he has yet to recross the commitment line.

The rationale is simple - why does he need to go back to third for any reason? Once he's crossed the commitment line, he's committed to running to the scoring plate, so any attempt to return to third base is illegal.

So if, in the judgment of the umpire, the runner has already crossed the commitment line and he attempts to return to third base, he should immediately be called out.

NCASA....no dofference in the rule I pasted SSUSA rule above and hi-lited b....Once a runner has crossed the commitment line he: (b) must continue
home;

 

[NCASAUmp]

NCASA....no dofference in the rule I pasted SSUSA rule above and hi-lited b....Once a runner has crossed the commitment line he: (b) must continue
home;

Yes, that particular rule says that he must continue home, but it doesn't say at what point the runner is out.

However, later in the book, you'll find this (bolding is my emphasis):

8.8 • COMMITMENT LINE
A commitment line twenty feet from the scoring line will be used. Once a runner's foot touches the ground on or past this line, the runner is committed to advancing to the scoring line and may no longer be tagged out. EFFECT: Tag of the runner by a defensive player will not be allowed. The runner will be called safe and the ball remains live. NOTE: If a runner re-crosses the commitment line in an attempt to return to third base, he will be declared out and the ball remains live.

So to me, they're saying that he must re-cross the commitment line in order for the umpire to call him out.

Now seriously, what are the odds that a player will cross the commitment line, stop, turn back towards third without recrossing the line? I mean, I know you guys have senior moments out there, but I've yet to see that happen.

 

[bb666b77]

as a ssusa player ..we have always done an appeal for the crossing of the commitment line with the runner going back to 3rd....if not appealed before first pitch just like all other assoc's..play on.....

 

[ureout]

Yes, that particular rule says that he must continue home, but it doesn't say at what point the runner is out.

However, later in the book, you'll find this (bolding is my emphasis):



So to me, they're saying that he must re-cross the commitment line in order for the umpire to call him out.

Now seriously, what are the odds that a player will cross the commitment line, stop, turn back towards third without recrossing the line? I mean, I know you guys have senior moments out there, but I've yet to see that happen.

NCASA.... I'm sorry, what were we discussing.... .... :thumb:

 

[NCASAUmp]

as a ssusa player ..we have always done an appeal for the crossing of the commitment line with the runner going back to 3rd....if not appealed before first pitch just like all other assoc's..play on.....

That's odd. Nowhere does SSUSA state that this would be an appeal play. ASA doesn't treat this as an appeal play, either.