USSSA Steeping on plate for a new inning

HNunnery

Extra Hitter
So, January we played at a large tournament BLD Mansfield (these umpires call a lot of games). Bottom of the 6th inning and we're the visiting team up by 2 runs with 2 outs. Batter comes to the plate with about 6 seconds left on clock. Steps on home plate and swings, but MISSED. Clock is at zero. We all celebrate. Umpire says, he's out because a new rule in 2014 says you don't have to make contact with the pitch. Having you're foot on plate and swinging makes you out. Ok, we play on and still win.

Cut to a tournament on Saturday (much smaller tourney with not so reputable umpires). Same exact scenario happens, but this time I'm on the home team. Our batter trying to get out is young and isn't familiar with purposely getting an out. He steps on plate, swings and misses the pitched ball because it's way low and outside. Time expires and we lose. I tried to question it, but it was obvious that nobody else knew what I was talking about.

Which scenario was wrong? 1st or 2nd?
I couldn't find any rule to indicate the 1st scenario's call was correct.
 

rhound50

Rec Coed Superstar
1st scenario is wrong. I dont have the rule to quote in front of me but the batter is only out if they make contract with the ball when they have one foot fully out of the box or are in contact with home plate.
 

Pylon #00

Bad Mother****er
Steeping? Is that like shotting the box?

I just double checked the 2014 Rule Book, no change of that particular rule....

ILLEGALLY BATTED BALL is one batted fair or foul by the batter when either one or
both of his feet are in contact with the ground COMPLETELY outside the lines of the batter’s
box or when his foot is in contact with home plate, or when the ball is batted with an illegal
bat.
 

spos21ram

The Legend
Any rule like this that makes a mockery of the game needs to go. Players purposely getting out is absolutely ridiculous.
 

rhound50

Rec Coed Superstar
Any rule like this that makes a mockery of the game needs to go. Players purposely getting out is absolutely ridiculous.

I still have never understood why making an out on purpose is somehow making a mockery of the game. The goal of softball is to win the game right. If making an out to get another inning increases your teams odds of winning why is it mocking the game? Any other time you do something to increase your odds of winning it would be called strategy. The only people who seem to hate this tactic are the umpires/LD who like their games to stay on schedule.
 

Pylon #00

Bad Mother****er
I still have never understood why making an out on purpose is somehow making a mockery of the game. The goal of softball is to win the game right. If making an out to get another inning increases your teams odds of winning why is it mocking the game? Any other time you do something to increase your odds of winning it would be called strategy. The only people who seem to hate this tactic are the umpires/LD who like their games to stay on schedule.

So by that rationale.... the team in the field should use strategy and walk the batter trying to make the intentional out so the clock runs out?
 
When you put softball or baseball on a time limit you cause saving time to be part of the strategy. It's no different than taking a knee or running out of bounds. If you impose a time limit then you have to accept strategies to save time as part of the game.
 

spos21ram

The Legend
Except for charity tournaments and the occasional coed league, I've never played in a tourney or league where there is a time limit.

The USSSA league I run uses all USSSA rules and the longest our games ever are is 70-75 minutes. But on average they are an hour. I personally would never run a league with a time limit.
 

rhound50

Rec Coed Superstar
So by that rationale.... the team in the field should use strategy and walk the batter trying to make the intentional out so the clock runs out?

I've seen it done and I dont think there is anything wrong with it. The goal of softball is to end the game with more runs than the other team. How is this any different in strategy than taking a knee in football?

As a LD and TD I would never put a rule in place where it's strategy to get out on purpose.

Sorry normally I agree with you but blanket statements like this with not reasoning behind them make you look like one those LDs who just cares about getting his games done on time. Plus this isn't a rule you are putting in place, this is the rule set from USSSA. From all the umpires who have said this is mockery of the game, I still have not heard a reason why. In any timed game clock management is a big part of the strategy. Is spiking the ball to stop the clock in football mocking the game? Just like intentionally making an out spiking the ball is taking a negative play in hopes of increasing your odds of winning.

When you put softball or baseball on a time limit you cause saving time to be part of the strategy. It's no different than taking a knee or running out of bounds. If you impose a time limit then you have to accept strategies to save time as part of the game.

This is the smartest comment I have read on the subject in all the times this has been debated on SBF.
 

spos21ram

The Legend
The thing I don't like is the act of someone looking foolish trying to get out on purpose. If someone not very familiar with softball was watching, they would most likely laugh and say something along the lines of "well that's stupid". If I did run a league where there is a time limit, I'd probably allow the batter to just tell the umpire "I want to be an automatic out." I'd rather see that than someone swinging and missing on purpose, bunting, stepping on the plate, etc. I'm not saying using strategy is wrong. I'm not blaming the teams here, I'm blaming the rule.
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
Here's the origin of the rule...and it had nothing to do with time limits, or even softball, for that matter.

Rules against "delaying or hastening the game" originated in professional baseball in the early part of the 20th century. Naturally, those games weren't on a timer, so the original rule wasn't intended to address time limits.

Forgetting about the clock for a minute, in a non-timed game a team might either stall or purposely make outs when it's to their advantage in several situations. For example:

- In the fifth inning (the length needed to make the game official) and a storm is approaching (possible rain out if the fifth inning isn't completed). If one team has the lead they might want to purposely make outs to get the fifth inning complete, thus making it an official game if the rain hits. Or, if one team is losing, they might try to stall hoping that the rain does hit before the game becomes official.

- Same as bad weather approaching before the game is regulation, you can have incentives to stall or quickly make outs in the final inning of a game if darkness is approaching.

These are the two most common scenarios where delaying or hastening the game might become a strategy for one team or the other. They would come up quite often during a season, especially in the days before field lights and high tech turf.

While these had been common startegies for dealing with foul weather or darkness, once baseball became a professional sport that required fans to shell out hard-earned cash to attend, these tactics didn't sit well with the paying customers. Fans became outraged to see players purposely making outs or stalling. They paid their money to see the best players in the world play ball, not to watch them make a mockery of the game.

The owners need to keep the paying customers happy led to the addition of rules about hastening or delaying the game. These rules still exist in major league baseball (as well as amateur codes). And, when the rules of softball were first put together, they copied many of the existing baseball rules verbatim- including this one.

The softball rule applied to the same kind of situations. There was a long gap before timed games became the norm. With timed games, I think that the rule gets murkey because using a clock isn't what the original rule was designed to address.

In a timed game, if a team purposely makes outs so that another inning can be played, is that hastening the game? How can something that makes more innings be played be considered as "hastening" the game?

If a team stalls, is that delaying the game? The incintive to stall is to prevent another inning from being played. How is playing fewer innings, making the game be shorter and end sooner, "delaying" the game?

Stalling, to me, is usually the worst offense, because it's effect is to "take the bat out of the hands" of your opponent, preventing them from having any chance to catch up. A team normally stalls when they have the lead and want to prevent another inning from being played. This effectively removes any chance for the other team to come back and win the game.

On the other hand, purposely making outs to play another inning gives your opponent another chance to bat. It doesn't prevent the other team from winning.

My gut instinct is the same as some others have stated. Once you introduce a clock into a game, tactics for managing the clock should come into play. As an umpire, I have to enforce this rule, but I think that you can do it within the spirit and intent of the rule. In most cases, if things get out if hand a simple reminder to the coach that such tactics can result in a forfeit takes care of things. I've never had to address it again in a game where I gave such a warning.
 

sjury

The Old Man
I agree....stalling the game or purposely making outs is just stupid. We had an umpire tell us that if I batted we would not get another inning, we were down by 2 with 1 on and 2 out, but if I took an out we could play another inning. Which he should not have done. Our manager said no we're playing the game out. Single, double, double we win with the 6.7.8 hitters. Had we given them the bats they could have scored a lot more, and we already had a guy on and we needed his run. If I would have made the last out, it would have cost us the game, and me a lot of beer money. It also shows your guys confidence. Rushing the game or stalling shows lack of confidence in your team.
 

Illegal pitcher

The Veteran
I agree....stalling the game or purposely making outs is just stupid. We had an umpire tell us that if I batted we would not get another inning, we were down by 2 with 1 on and 2 out, but if I took an out we could play another inning. Which he should not have done. Our manager said no we're playing the game out. Single, double, double we win with the 6.7.8 hitters. Had we given them the bats they could have scored a lot more, and we already had a guy on and we needed his run. If I would have made the last out, it would have cost us the game, and me a lot of beer money. It also shows your guys confidence. Rushing the game or stalling shows lack of confidence in your team.

One example doesn't mean much. If a strategy doesn't work when you try it, it's not necessarily a bad strategy. And vice versa.

What if you didn't already have a runner on base, and the other team had poor hitters coming up in the next inning?
 

TonyB

Addicted to Softballfans
Single, double, double we win with the 6.7.8 hitters. Had we given them the bats they could have scored a lot more, and we already had a guy on and we needed his run. If I would have made the last out, it would have cost us the game, and me a lot of beer money. It also shows your guys confidence. Rushing the game or stalling shows lack of confidence in your team.
It's situational. Down by 1 or 2 runs, or down by 3-5 with 2 or 3 on base? Play it out. Generally speaking, you're about even money to score 2 runs with 2 outs and 2 runners in scoring position vs starting a new inning, but you have a better chance of scoring 3+ runs in a new inning.
 

Fin09

Addicted to Softballfans
You know what clock management means to me? Hustling out to your positions every inning. Shave 30 seconds to a minute off each half inning by doing this, and you're not scrambling to get one more inning in most times.
 

spos21ram

The Legend
If your games need a time limit I blame the LD but some blame goes to the umpires for not moving the game along. We use a 1 and 1 count, no foul to waste, we don't run out HR's anymore, after the first inning it's one and down in between innings, and our umpires keep the game moving. We don't need a time limit because our games rarely ever go 70+ minutes. Slow pitch games should not be going longer than that. The game is meant to be played 7 innings (unless a mercy), the time limit rule really irritates me as you can see.
 

steveblue25

The Rookie
steveblue25

So, January we played at a large tournament BLD Mansfield (these umpires call a lot of games). Bottom of the 6th inning and we're the visiting team up by 2 runs with 2 outs. Batter comes to the plate with about 6 seconds left on clock. Steps on home plate and swings, but MISSED. Clock is at zero. We all celebrate. Umpire says, he's out because a new rule in 2014 says you don't have to make contact with the pitch. Having you're foot on plate and swinging makes you out. Ok, we play on and still win.

Cut to a tournament on Saturday (much smaller tourney with not so reputable umpires). Same exact scenario happens, but this time I'm on the home team. Our batter trying to get out is young and isn't familiar with purposely getting an out. He steps on plate, swings and misses the pitched ball because it's way low and outside. Time expires and we lose. I tried to question it, but it was obvious that nobody else knew what I was talking about.

Which scenario was wrong? 1st or 2nd?
I couldn't find any rule to indicate the 1st scenario's call was correct.

there is a rule that teams can not do acts that shorten or prolong the game.
 

zachd

The Veteran
I made a post about this whole thing also. I was going to update it to say since I made it I've seen this scenario play out 3 more times in league and tourneys.

Funny the last time was a team playing against us who wanted to get out to get another inning of play. But we had already seen these same two umpires not allow it in two other games. So we knew as soon as they tried to get out the umps would just call the game, which they did. They tried to not have the batter go in the box and just said 'we're taking an out'. That's the worst way to do it.

I think a team would be better off hitting a pop fly or grounder to first to get an out because then you aren't 'making a mockery' or 'travesty' of the game in the ump's eyes.

I do think teams should be prepared to be on either side of this situation. The alternative is a bunch of guys all yelling "go bat.. don't go bat.. step on the plate! no don't do it. stay in the dugout". The umps are going to be against your right there when you start that business.
 
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