SYB thoughts on 25oz bats

[ShortYellowBus]

I’m generally thinking about the spin bat companies are using to justify bat offerings. I saw a person ask on social media why X-Core bats aren’t offered in 25oz weighting. A corporate shill responded “won’t pass certification” and that comment received a lot of likes.

This is the classic response I’m seeing.

Ten years ago, Carl P said the same thing about his justification of selling only the lighter bats because the heavier bats wouldn’t pass certification.

Which one is it? Why can’t bat companies just be honest with the consumers and just say the truth; adding more options requires more money. If everyone learns to swing the offerings it already sells, costs are lower and profits are higher.

Thoughts?

 

[ilyk2win]

30 oz 4L!!! Anything less is for pansies. TBH - the lighter the bat, the easier it is to a- control and b- generate bat speed, even later in the tourney when fatigued. With technology making it easier to find the sweet spot on the bat and balls so hard we need to consider a name change from "soft"ball, making mechanics easier on top of it simply isn't great for the game IMO (from a safety and fair competition standpoint). I get it, everyone likes to hit HR's and blow up pitchers, but I'd prefer it to be a skill to hit HR's (even if it's genetics driven) and not everyone in the lineup be a threat to the pitcher's safety.

 

[UncleMosk]

Funny thing I noticed with Anarchy bats is that the 1st ones to sell out are the 28oz! Possibly they produce less of that weight over the 26 / 27 but I do see if often.

There are very few 25oz bats I swing. As right now I have one with a 1 ounce EL and it gives the perception of a sledge but nothing close to a true 28 or even 30oz.

I see similar trend in Seniors with less 30 oz options as well.

 

[ShortYellowBus]

Perhaps I am not getting my point across. The USA/ASA verification process is simple: compression testing.

I'll dive in a little deeper.

The compression testing device compresses a single point in a barrel a predetermined amount. The reading it gives is the amount of force required to produce the amount of compression. The restrictor or “fib” as most of us know it to be called, stops the barrel from over compressing. The barrel hits the restrictor and the reading of the compression tester is affected. And that’s how that works.

The weight of the bat doesn’t matter. In fact, if it is to be believed that lighter bats swing faster, if the bat is swung too hard, the restrictor will engage sooner and kill off the performance. And the restrictor can be hit so hard that it smashes into the opposite wall of the barrel absolutely killing all performance and causing premature breakage.

So how does a lighter bat not pass certification?

 

[UncleMosk]

That went over my head. Too early for me and now my day will be shot trying to answer that riddle.

Love the insight but in all honesty you're right on all fronts.

Its all about the Benjamins.

 

[DirtBag215]

You look like an ******* if you say we don’t make as much money off the heavier bats. So blame it on the bats being too hot.

 

[ELSoftballClub]

SYB asks:

So how does a lighter bat not pass certification?

I agree it seems more riddle than anything logical. Do all manufacturers save/add weight the same way? What may change when going dropping weight? What could be reduced to save weight but produce BBS speed in excess of 98mph without killing off performance (as SYB explains) even more?

All that said, until someone proves otherwise, I think you answered your own question when saying "adding more options requires more money." But I can be cynical.

 

[ilyk2win]

I thought for USA they had a test for BBS, which as we know cannot exceed 98 mph? Controlled bat swing speed (way lower speed than these conference monster's swing) and USA approved balls. Maybe that went away with the introduction of non-metal bats.

 

[ELSoftballClub]

USA still uses it. So Carl was saying as weight increases it produces a BSS over 98 mph. And from your post it sounds like an Anarchy rep is saying a reduction of weight will produce a BSS over 98 mph. It has been a long time since I've done real math, but I think the only thing preventing passage of the heavier or lighter bats is the compression level. So maybe they don't want to assign a new model # for different weights and set a different compression level????? If so, you are right that it is money driven.

But that still doesn't answer your specific question on lighter bats since the mass is reduced but velocity (swing speed) in the test remains constant. I don't know how a lighter bat increases BSS when swing speed is constant but mass is reduced.

F = M * V^2

 

[jbo911]

I could imagine both being legit, I don't think they are, but the anarchy response seems more plausible. If their barrel restricting device weighs so much that they'd have to remove material or develop a completely different base shell I could see that. The other could make a 28 oz without having to add Endload which is usually what makes passing bats fail for asa.

I assume everything said by every company rep is suspect at best. Most are so ridiculously made up I just ignore them.

 

[jbo911]

The bbs test is more complicated than that. It has an equation for Endload that you are forgetting. I don't know the specifics, but asa has been banning bats for being too endloaded since 2002 or so.

As I said, he could make a 28 without it adding Endload. He said he made a 28 and it failed if I remember correctly. He wanted everyone to think the others were 97.4 bbs.

 

[ELSoftballClub]

I completely agree with what you are saying. I have no idea if the FIB/restrictor changes as the bat weight decreases. Question for someone else?

 

[basilray]

I completely agree with what you are saying. I have no idea if the FIB/restrictor changes as the bat weight decreases. Question for someone else?

Isn't that why Monsta moved the 26 and 27 oz models to being called Fallout and kept 25oz as Torch around 2017/2018?

I still have a 28oz M1 Torch from 2016. Probably my favorite bat of all time, not because it's some crazy hot piece of magic, I just generally swing it more consistently for some reason than pretty much another other bat I've ever owned.

 

[D-ROCK13]

The bbs test is more complicated than that. It has an equation for Endload that you are forgetting. I don't know the specifics, but asa has been banning bats for being too endloaded since 2002 or so.

As I said, he could make a 28 without it adding Endload. He said he made a 28 and it failed if I remember correctly. He wanted everyone to think the others were 97.4 bbs.

And then proceeded to tell the world that extra bat speed from lower weight bats makes you hit the ball harder and further. which if you know anything about physics at all, is completely incorrect.

 

[TWmccoy]

I actually do own a 25 oz bat. Juno MK-XVIII. .5 OZ endload. I bought it used off a guy. Would I go out of my way to buy or swing 25 oz bats? No. Do I like this bat? Yes. It's just endloaded enough to provide a nice little thump on the ball, and I've hit several noteworthy (long) HRs with it.

NOW, I prefer 27-28 oz bats, and I do feel that heavier bats are hotter than lighter ones. Obviously no one's going to generate the same bat speed with 28 oz as they do with 25 oz, but the extra 3 oz of mass makes up for that. 28 oz will come through the zone slower, but provide equal to or greater batted ball speed as lighter weights.

I once did a test in BP with 2 2001 3DXs. A 26 oz, and a 32 oz. Despite swinging MUCH slower with the 32 oz 3DX, it was putting balls MUCH further than the 26. The barrel came through the zone like a sledgehammer. With the 26 oz I was swinging very hard, but it felt like I was putting in so much more work.

I feel like many softball players today are products of technology. They only have power because they swing 25-26 oz bats. If you give them a 28 they literally don't have the strength to swing it. Bat technology now almost favors these people, because lighter bats provide the same power for weak swinging guys as a heavy bat does for a strong guy.

IMO, everyone SHOULD swing the heaviest bat they can manage. That said, I see all sorts of huge guys swinging 25-26 oz.

 

[TWmccoy]

On a side note, I don't much care for ASA/USA's "double barrel" bats. I have a couple of them (Demarini Nihilist, Worth The Grand, and Miken DC41). These bats all perform the same, and I feel like they do worse the harder you swing them. I can put a VICIOUS swing on a ball with any of these bats, and the ball seems to come off pretty weakly. They also produce a lot of knuckleballs.

Every once in a while something will happen and I'll hammer one properly 350'+. Thing is, I can't do it consistently. These bats have bad sweetspots, and are surprisingly unforgiving. All the balls I hit with them that go furthest seem to be fly balls I get under. Everything that's hit hard right in the face knuckles and comes off the bat poorly.

 

[Bobby Buggs]

The statement about not passing on lighter weights is Incorrect. Heavier bats will fail the test way before 25s will. I know this as facts not sales shilling

 

[basilray]

All the balls I hit with them that go furthest seem to be fly balls I get under. Everything that's hit hard right in the face knuckles and comes off the bat poorly.

Anecdotally, I concur. I see way more of those mi**** looking fly balls that look like they'll be cans of corn but end up going 320' in ASA than UTrip.

 

[jbo911]

What I think would be really interesting to see is what the game would be like if they adopted a drop system like baseball. If you wanted to swing a 34:inch bat it has to be a 29 oz. It would be wild to see how much that would change the game.

 

[DirtBag215]

What I think would be really interesting to see is what the game would be like if they adopted a drop system like baseball. If you wanted to swing a 34:inch bat it has to be a 29 oz. It would be wild to see how much that would change the game.

This would be interesting…

 

[TWmccoy]

What I think would be really interesting to see is what the game would be like if they adopted a drop system like baseball. If you wanted to swing a 34:inch bat it has to be a 29 oz. It would be wild to see how much that would change the game.

I think slowpitch should have done this years ago. If you want to swing a long bat, it must also be heavy. If you want to swing a twig, it must be short.

 

[ilyk2win]

Would just lead back to the shaving era though no? Buy "long bat" - too heavy - make lighter.

 

[TWmccoy]

Would just lead back to the shaving era though no? Buy "long bat" - too heavy - make lighter.

I think the ultimate solution for slowpitch bats is to DRASTICALLY raise the minimum compression of bats. Something like 280 or 300. 240 is just too low, plain and simple.

Also, bats should be made in such a way that the endcaps are not removable (like what Pure does).

Between ridiculous balls (like hard cores) and silly bats, slowpitch has just made a mess of things lately. The bat/ball combo is off.

 

[jbo911]

They could've done so many things, and yet all they did was choose bandaids all along the way.

If you shave a 29 for weight that's easy enough to check. 10 dollar kitchen scale is cheaper than a compression machine.

They could've limited barrels to 12". That alone would solve 60% of problems easily.

Almost every decision they've made has been crazy. Lower cor balls was so dumb. ASA BBS test was okay, but they tweaked it to be less safe as they lost money. Usssa has been inching asking so slowly well be dead for decades before they get it. Softball may completely disappear.

They built the game around people that want results without work instead of the people that loved fair competition. They shunned the people that loved all the other parts of the game, and they're getting what they asked for.

 

[TWmccoy]

Best solution is really dead bats and really lively balls. Something like a .52 400. Even wood bats hit .52s well.

Having really hot bats AND balls does nothing but create problems.

 

[jbo911]

I know they want to make money, so they need bats to break eventually, but current bats with 250-265 compression and 47/375s would be light years ahead of where we currently are. Such a small change, it's mind blowing.

I will say, the difference in the game since they started bat testing here is insane. Watching YouTubers compression testing senior bats has confirmed what I've always thought. I've been facing basically senior level bats in utrip and gsl here for years. Wsl always tested.

 

[etnstudios]

Go back to wood which would break and everyone would be happy. Well, obviously not everybody lol

 

[TWmccoy]

I know they want to make money, so they need bats to break eventually, but current bats with 250-265 compression and 47/375s would be light years ahead of where we currently are. Such a small change, it's mind blowing.

I will say, the difference in the game since they started bat testing here is insane. Watching YouTubers compression testing senior bats has confirmed what I've always thought. I've been facing basically senior level bats in utrip and gsl here for years. Wsl always tested.

Funny thing... I see WAY more HR here in CO with 240 bats and Pro M balls (not even hard cores) than I did with 220 bats and Pro Ms. We have bat testing as well, so it isn't like guys are swinging light sabers.

 

[jbo911]

Funny thing... I see WAY more HR here in CO with 240 bats and Pro M balls (not even hard cores) than I did with 220 bats and Pro Ms. We have bat testing as well, so it isn't like guys are swinging light sabers.

I could see that, but I was playing against 220 with 44/375 in South GA. Up here it was untested 220 and syco cover classic Ms and holy ****, it's not even close there. Especially going from 80-100 degrees the majority of the time there to 55-75 degrees up here.

I've never been closer to saying **** it I'm don't than I was when that ball broke my hand through my glove.

 

[TWmccoy]

I could see that, but I was playing against 220 with 44/375 in South GA. Up here it was untested 220 and syco cover classic Ms and holy ****, it's not even close there. Especially going from 80-100 degrees the majority of the time there to 55-75 degrees up here.

I've never been closer to saying **** it I'm don't than I was when that ball broke my hand through my glove.

USSSA has definitely allowed the game to get out of hand. I won't argue with you there. I'm not highly optimistic they'll ever take any REAL steps to fix anything either.