What is with the USSSA strike zone??

[spos21ram]

We play tournaments pretty regularly and we just adjust our position in the box so this isn't a thread of someone bitching about one game, one call, etc. Just an overall observation.

Although for the most part, the umpires call what they see both ways, the strike zone is absolutely ridiculous in regards to the book rule. USSSA has turned into 3 feet from the ground with 8 feet being the max, where excessive speed is rarely ever called.. As long as the pitch crosses the plate and isn't high, it's a strike 99% of the time. Pitches are crossing at the batter's ankles and being called strikes. Pitches are going through the strike zone and umpires are calling balls deep D). USSSA needs to just change what the book says because saying 3 feet from release, 10 foot max, is a joke.

Curious to know why they blatantly don't follow the book rule? I love USSSA, think it's the best association, but the strike zone is crazy. Not sure if it's like this everywhere.

If MODS think this is better suited for the USSSA section, please move it.

 

[Hebrew Hacker]

I agree that's it's ridiculous, but I have to say that I like it more this way (for selfish reasons). I hit low pitches (waist to ankle) much better than I do higher strikes.

 

[NE Hitman]

I agree 100%. Around here its pretty consistent, but not correct (by the book). Its the high (deep) ones that bother me the most, they never get called. If you can imagine the area above the plate (not higher than the batters shoulder), you could throw balls through that upper area all day long, and if the batter is in the middle of the box, or up in the box, it'll never get called a strike.

 

[Dan&Cori]

I agree with the complaint about the deep pitch call. I play some USSSA leagues, but most those umpires don't really call from release. I have played mostly NSA and ASA tournaments, but pitched my first USSSA tournament last month. The umps would normally give the 3 ft from release call and allow a lower pitch based on the lower release. But there were a few pitches called "Deep. Over the shoulder", when the ball was released low and never got 5 ft off the ground at the high point of the pitch. Took a few innings to adjust from what I read in the rules to what the umps would usually give.

 

[ser7643]

Played in a State tournament over the weekend and the Umpires were told to start calling a higher arc and not the low and fast pitch by the State Director/Regional VP of USSSA. I must admit it was refreshing to see actual strikes as defined by the rule book. Although after a couple games the umps went back to the low and fast strike zone, mainly due to getting bitched at by every pitcher and losing team.

 

[DoctorNick31]

The book does not specify if it's 3 feet from release or 3 feet from the ground. We had an argument here about it and its the umpires discretion really

 

[ser7643]

The book does not specify if it's 3 feet from release or 3 feet from the ground. We had an argument here about it and its the umpires discretion really

Actually is does specify......

2013 USSSA Rule Book
RULE 6. Sec. 5.
B. The pitched ball must arc at least 3 feet after leaving the pitcher's hand and before it passes any part of the home plate.
C. The pitched ball shall not rise higher than 10 feet above the ground.

EFFECT Sec. 5. A-C...it does mention in this section that the height and speed is left entirely to the judgement of the umpire...but that doesn't mean the umpire can let someone pitch with unlimited arc or throw a 1 ft fast ball. Each umpire will judge for themselves whether the pitch conforms with the above mentioned rule.

What the rule book does not specify is anything about where the ball lands behind the plate. Onle discusses the arc/release, maximum height and where it needs to cross a batter standing at the plate (between highest shoulder and front knee). But you will hear most umpires say "deep for that arc" or any other sayings they have but again has nothing to do with where it lands.

 

[DoctorNick31]

But like I said, the umpire can take it as arcing 3 feet from the ground or the pitchers hand. 3 feet from the pitchers hand is not utrip anymore. That would make it a high arc association and not be as big as it is today. Totally up to the umpire.

 

[dychen]

But like I said, the umpire can take it as arcing 3 feet from the ground or the pitchers hand. 3 feet from the pitchers hand is not utrip anymore. That would make it a high arc association and not be as big as it is today. Totally up to the umpire.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

How would 3feet from a pitcher's hand make it a high arc association? What pitcher do you know release from the top of their head in slowpitch?

 

[DoctorNick31]

3 feet from release would make it at least 5 or 6 feet high. Even if you release at your hip, for most I would say that at least 3 feet right there. 3+3 is 6 which is high arc. It just says must arc 3 feet after leaving the hand of a pitcher. It it arcs 3 feet from the ground, technically that could be a strike depending on how the umpire interprets the rule

 

[Trung1130]

Its terrible in Houston. USSSA is more or less like modified softball. A pitch in order to have an arc has to have a hump on its way to the plate. Ive seen borderline fastpitch pitches be called strikes in Houston.

 

[txbullets]

Its terrible in Houston. USSSA is more or less like modified softball. A pitch in order to have an arc has to have a hump on its way to the plate. Ive seen borderline fastpitch pitches be called strikes in Houston.

Trung, who do you play with in Houston?

 

[txbullets]

Honestly when we played South E Worlds in College Station 2 years ago I was throwing faster pitches than I ever get away with here. My goal was to throw fast and low to the big guys to make it harder to hit a punch shot and hope they turned on it for a home run.

 

[Hebrew Hacker]

But like I said, the umpire can take it as arcing 3 feet from the ground or the pitchers hand. 3 feet from the pitchers hand is not utrip anymore. That would make it a high arc association and not be as big as it is today. Totally up to the umpire.

No. You're wrong. I'm finding it difficult to express how wrong you actually are. What's "up to the umpire" is to determine whether the pitch met all the criteria to be a strike, not to determine what the criteria are.

One of the criteria that a pitched ball must meet in order to be called a strike is in regard to the height and arc of the pitch, and it CLEARLY states that the ball must arc at least 3' from the pitcher's hand, and that it cannot exceed 10' in height. It does not say that the umpire may choose whether or not to change the term "pitcher's hand" to "ground".

For the sake of your progeny, I really hope you're not as dumb as you're coming across.

 

[DoctorNick31]

^^^ dumb#%@$, look up the pitching rule and tell me where it clearly says from release. It's an undefined rule which is causing commotion in every state.

 

[DoctorNick31]

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but when it's undefined, different people are going to have different opinions. Plain and simple

 

[dttruax]

Wow, and I thought people complained a lot about the strike zone/strike calls in ASA where there's a lot few conditions to consider if the pitch is a strike or not. My advice to everyone: it's slow pitch softball. If it's close, swing. A good hitter should be able to make good contact on probably 80% of pitches thrown....

 

[dttruax]

^^^ dumb#%@$, look up the pitching rule and tell me where it clearly says from release. It's an undefined rule which is causing commotion in every state.

Now I don't play and USSSA, but the rule stating the ball has to arc 3' from the pitcher's hand, to me, refers to release. The only way that would be 3' from the ground is if the pitcher's hand was on the ground at the time the ball was released from his hand.

 

[DoctorNick31]

^^ well an that's fine. But that's what I'm talking about. It can go either way because its undefined.

 

[spos21ram]

^^^ dumb#%@$, look up the pitching rule and tell me where it clearly says from release. It's an undefined rule which is causing commotion in every state.

You're completely wrong. Why do you think pitchers will get down on one knee and pitch? It's because their hand is almost scraping the ground so that's how they can get away throwing a 3 foot 6 inch pitch.

 

[dychen]

Don't ever play any games against Conference teams, those guys regularly throw pitches that are faster and lower than what you are complaining about.

 

[dttruax]

^^ well an that's fine. But that's what I'm talking about. It can go either way because its undefined.

I think you and some of the umps are reading too much into the wording of the rule. I think that if USSSA meant 3' arc from the ground, they would have just said a legal pitch had to have an arc between 3' and 10' from the ground (like ASA words their rule). Period. I'm pretty sure it's implied 3' arc from the hand (ie, release).

Could the wording of the rule be a little clearer? I guess so since there seems to be some confusion. Then again, if the umps went to any sort of official USSSA umpire training, I'm sure they would know the intent of the rule.

 

[EAJuggalo]

I absolutely agree that there are very few umps that call the strike zone as written in the book. About a half dozen times this year I've had a batter complain that the pitch was too high and stick his arm out even with the top of his sternum to emphasize his point. When I ask him if that's where he thought the ball was when it crossed the plate he says yes and that's too high.

The goal of the rule is to acknowledge that a pitch can have an arc without meeting a defined floor. I've had pitchers that release the ball 8 inches from the ground and guys that release the ball 4 feet of the ground.

Doctor Nick, we as umpires are told that the height needs to be 3 feet from release, generally just above the height of the pitcher's shoulder when they release it.

 

[spartanmikek]

The book does not specify if it's 3 feet from release or 3 feet from the ground. We had an argument here about it and its the umpires discretion really

Sorry guys but I agree with this guy (about having umpires argue the writting of the rule) and we had same problem I'm my league. They claim the rules aren't clear but I believe they are and I understand what all of u are saying. Heres the argument used in my league. The rules say exactly.USSSA Rule BookRULE 6. Sec. 5. B. The pitched ball must arc at least 3 feet after leaving the pitcher's hand and before it passes any part of the home plate.C. The pitched ball shall not rise higher than 10 feet above the ground. It DOES NOT say "the pitch must arc 3ft ""FROM"" the pitchers hand"... that is the exact argument the umpires quote in my league. I don't know what is correct which is why I'm asking here and I'm not saying what our umpires said was correct. I'm just looking for what u guys think about the way its wrItten and I'm hoping ncump will chime in with an answer. I would think though if it was from the pitchers hand the rule would not be argued by umpires if it said "the pitch must arc 3ft FROM the pitchers hand after being released". Lol or if we dIdn't have bad umpires which is what it sounds like after reading ur previous posts

ADDITIONAL
Neat, our LD just sent out an email that is supporting the umpire. Anyone want to join our new fastpitch league?

 

[dttruax]

Sorry guys but I agree with this guy (about having umpires argue the writting of the rule) and we had same problem I'm my league. They claim the rules aren't clear but I believe they are and I understand what all of u are saying. Heres the argument used in my league. The rules say exactly.USSSA Rule BookRULE 6. Sec. 5.*B. The pitched ball must arc at least 3 feet after leaving the pitcher's hand and before it passes any part of the home plate.C. The pitched ball shall not rise higher than 10 feet above the ground. It DOES NOT say "the pitch must arc 3ft ""FROM"" the pitchers hand"... that is the exact argument the umpires quote in my league. I don't know what is correct which is why I'm asking here and I'm not saying what our umpires said was correct. I'm just looking for what u guys think about the way its wrItten and I'm hoping ncump will chime in with an answer. I would think though if it was from the pitchers hand the rule would not be argued by umpires if it said "the pitch must arc 3ft FROM the pitchers hand after being released". Lol or if we dIdn't have bad umpires which is what it sounds like after reading ur previous posts

ADDITIONAL
Neat, our LD just sent out an email that is supporting the umpire. Anyone want to join our new fastpitch league?

If you want more clarification on this, I suggest posting this question in the Ask the Umpire section of the forum..........

 

[ser7643]

^^^ dumb#%@$, look up the pitching rule and tell me where it clearly says from release. It's an undefined rule which is causing commotion in every state.

I quoted the rule for you above and it CLEARLY states the arc must be 3 feet AFTER LEAVING THE PITCHERS HAND...AKA RELEASE. It's only undefined to meet your purpose but its clear what it states.

 

[ser7643]

Don't ever play any games against Conference teams, those guys regularly throw pitches that are faster and lower than what you are complaining about.

When the Conference held a tournament here in MD the local umps were calling the low and fast pitches and the Conference players were all complaining. From the Conference tournaments I've watched they generally call low and fast balls and make the pitchers put a hump in their pitches.

 

[ScootDog]

Doctor nick is a stupid ass. The damn rule is written and been quoted a few times already.

 

[spos21ram]

Thinking it's 3 feet from the ground is ridiculous. I have had conversations with several umps at nationals, worlds, etc. I also umpire a little bit. None will tell you it's 3 from the ground. Call up or email the national UIC right now and he will tell you 3 from release.

 

[txbullets]

The biggest problem I see is that umpires are too lazy or don't feel like arguing with teams so they give the same height (from the ground) to both teams even if one pitcher is on a knee pitching and releasing from 1' from the ground and the other is releasing from his waist standing up. I think a big part of the problem is that players do not know the rule and if I throw a pitch releasing it from as close to the ground as possible and it goes 3'6" and their pitcher throws standing up from the waist an his ball goes 4' he the team will complain all day if they don't get that call and I do. I think instead of educating the players the umpire finds it easier to find a happy medium. He may give me a little flatter from the knee but not 2'.

I have a pitch scenario I would like to get your opinion on. It is one that I will never get a call on and I doubt 90% of you ever do. Say you release a ball from 6" off the ground and the ball goes 5' high but the apex of the arc is 5'-10' from the batter thus crossing the batter at the numbers and would land a good 5'-10' behind the plate. By definition of the pitching rule the only thing that can make this not a strike is excessive speed. I am guessing that is why this is never called a strike.

Speaking of excessive speed - did you know that after 1 warning to slow your pitch down on the second warning you have to be removed from the mound. Not many know this.