2023 USSSA Rule Changes

[TWmccoy]

There were issues the entire conference season with bats failing either in the wrapper or passing fresh out of the wrapper on Friday afternoon and failing Saturday night when the final four got retested. I know Rip Riporti of Juno had a long conversation with Stro about this at at least one event. My understanding is that USSSA took a few bats from each manufacturer used at the Major World Series and put them through the same tests that are done on the model samples prior to approval. It's been reported that Suncoast and Juno had their bats fail those tests, i.e. if they had submitted those for approval they wouldn't have gotten a stamp. No one knows yet what the fallout from that testing will be. I don't know where the speculation that a decision would be announced today came from, I haven't heard anything but I'm pretty far removed from the people that make those decisions, at least until I get to Florida next month for CC.

I think 240 bats are simply going to have be made with thicker walls. What you're describing here is crap, and manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to make bats that fail so quickly. Most slowpitch players don't have endless budgets to be buying 10 bats a year.

IMO 240 bats should all start at about 300 and work their way down from there. Starting at 250 (or whatever) is dumb.

I don't care if USSSA drops the hammer on Juno and Suncoast. Maybe doing so will convince other manufacturers to make a better/more durable product.

 

[jbo911]

If they find out they sent different bats out than what they sent in for testing, that should carry a heavy penalty. There's no excuse for that, and it could even be criminal.

I don't think it's feasible, and maybe not even scientifically possible for them to say your bat must break before it drops below 240. Every bat breaks at a different number of swings, it's not the kind of thing you can manufacturer consistently.

That being said, if utrip approved a bat that tested at 250 in the wrapper that's on them. If a company makes a bar that treats at 250 niw, that's on then. If people buy a bat like that, that's on them.

The only thing I know is these bats will be popular with people that don't play with testing. If utrip doesn't start testing much more rigorously, they're going to have a huge problem on their hands. If they don't ban all bats like this, they'll have a very tough time making a legal case that they didn't intentionally look the other way if/when someone gets hurt.

 

[cmo27]

If they find out they sent different bats out than what they sent in for testing, that should carry a heavy penalty. There's no excuse for that, and it could even be criminal.

I don't think it's feasible, and maybe not even scientifically possible for them to say your bat must break before it drops below 240. Every bat breaks at a different number of swings, it's not the kind of thing you can manufacturer consistently.

That being said, if utrip approved a bat that tested at 250 in the wrapper that's on them. If a company makes a bar that treats at 250 niw, that's on then. If people buy a bat like that, that's on them.

The only thing I know is these bats will be popular with people that don't play with testing. If utrip doesn't start testing much more rigorously, they're going to have a huge problem on their hands. If they don't ban all bats like this, they'll have a very tough time making a legal case that they didn't intentionally look the other way if/when someone gets hurt.

Reminds me of the Easton Clarity's from 10-12 years ago that turned white-ish after they exceeded 98mph.

 

[cmo27]

I think 240 bats are simply going to have be made with thicker walls. What you're describing here is crap, and manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to make bats that fail so quickly. Most slowpitch players don't have endless budgets to be buying 10 bats a year.

IMO 240 bats should all start at about 300 and work their way down from there. Starting at 250 (or whatever) is dumb.

I don't care if USSSA drops the hammer on Juno and Suncoast. Maybe doing so will convince other manufacturers to make a better/more durable product.

The more they restrict performance on these 240 bats, the more they're going to entice shaving too. Just think about it, guys are still cutting hotter 220 bats because they can't hit hard enough. So anticipate another increase in that area. And with all the advances in altering with polymer, etc, they're already beating the tester.

 

[EAJuggalo]

I don't think it's feasible, and maybe not even scientifically possible for them to say your bat must break before it drops below 240. Every bat breaks at a different number of swings, it's not the kind of thing you can manufacturer consistently.

Theoretically this is already part of the standard and has been since the 2012 stamp. Bats are required to have an indicator when they break in past 1.20 BPF.

 

[jbo911]

Theoretically this is already part of the standard and has been since the 2012 stamp. Bats are required to have an indicator when they break in past 1.20 BPF.

True, but they're clearly not policing it, and I don't think they really thought it through.

If the companies do it, and their bats are viewed as less desirable for it, what is their motivation to do it? What happens to the conference if Wilson and Rawlings pull their money and put it into USA?

 

[EAJuggalo]

True, but they're clearly not policing it, and I don't think they really thought it through.

If the companies do it, and their bats are viewed as less desirable for it, what is their motivation to do it? What happens to the conference if Wilson and Rawlings pull their money and put it into USA?

Completely agree, it started off well and then no one said anything when those features were removed. What does it say about USSSA if they discover manufacturers blatantly breaking the rules and not doing anything? Especially when you just handed the Major World Series trophy to the owners of one of those companies.
Unless USA puts a lot more time and effort into developing their "Super" program, nothing. USSSA is still the dominant sanction in slow pitch at the upper levels. It would be a huge stand for one of those companies to boycott USSSA for enforcing the rules they agreed to.

 

[jbo911]

The thing that bothers me most about the bats is they have to understand this because of the balls. A ball is much more basic, and can still only be manufactured according to certain tolerances. I've only heard, but they say something like+/- 25 lbs within compression. That's a huge swing.

You can't manufacturer a rubber sphere to exactly 275 lbs compression, but you can make a composite bat that breaks before going below 240? I don't think so.

In addition, your reward for trying to do so is a slump in sales because the players want the hit bat if utrip is allowing them, which so far they are .

 

[ilyk2win]

Look at the "criminal" history of one of the above mentioned owners, and the thought of shady dealings with production of bats wouldn't be so surprising to hear. I'm not saying at all that it IS happening, but knowing some past business practices makes the thought of this not so shocking. I hope it's not true though.

 

[jbo911]

It's worth noting, if anyone was curious, that apparently dual stamps sell worse than we'd have guessed. They still have their 220 "dual" stamps at another online retailer prices higher than their 220 utrip only bats. Anyone going to buy one bat for all is going to be pretty upset. Guess nobody has noticed to complain.

 

[TWmccoy]

It's worth noting, if anyone was curious, that apparently dual stamps sell worse than we'd have guessed. They still have their 220 "dual" stamps at another online retailer prices higher than their 220 utrip only bats. Anyone going to buy one bat for all is going to be pretty upset. Guess nobody has noticed to complain.

Dual stamp bats never really caught on. I have a couple old dual stamp Eastons. Paid $99 each for them. They aren't very good performers. I use them in cold weather.

Buying bats online is a crapshoot. You can find a bat for $99 at one website, while at another it'll be $250.

 

[EAJuggalo]

I wouldn't really be surprised by any decisions coming down this week. Anything from a full ban to stripping the stamp going forward to nothing happening. What I'm hearing is that Suncoast and Juno bats manufactured were fundamentally different than the samples supplied for testing.

Quoting myself. I guess I was told correctly but they haven't completed the testing to see if it's isolated or systemic. Also got my question answered about the wear in factor. BPF and compression are loosely correlated. It's entirely possible for a bat to have a 1.20 BPF and compression test at 200. It's also possible for a bat to have a 1.25 BPF and compression test at 300.

 

[TWmccoy]

I think USSSA is stepping on their own ****s right now. The timing of these "bat suspensions" is terrible, and leaves a ton of players in the lurch. I'm not a Suncoast swinger myself, but 2/3 of my tourny team is. They'll all have to get new bats. Also, what about all the guys traveling to Vegas this week? I know Suncoasts and Junos factor heavily into major softball.

Why now? I have 2 Junos on that list, an MR-1 and a MK18. Both bats are 2 years old, and aren't in any danger of being considered hot. Both come out of the wrapper at 300 and take a long time to really get going.

I feel like USSSA is being really nitpicky and arbitrary with these sudden "bat suspensions". Will it be a permanent ban? Does anyone out there really know what's going on? Can anyone actually explain it in an unbiased way? I have a feeling there's a lot of backdoor politics going on here.

 

[kweiss]

I will say this, I've always thought this compression stuff was just an attempt to cya in case of lawsuits.

As a casual player these days, the trend seems even more obvious to me. Change the stamp every ~5 years to encourage bat sales. The serious players stock up on bats (spurring sales), the casual players are forced to replace a bat they otherwise never would (spurring sales) and the bat companies can brag about their "new technology" (spurring sales). Everyone wins, except for the player...

There's been three different "legal" USSSA stamps within the past ~10 years, and yet all the bats still perform nearly identical? C'mon...

Sure, a new 240 might exit 5-10 mph slower than my OG Booger from 2005, but that's not making any meaningful difference. When shortstops are having to armor up like NHL goalies, you know something is still broken. If sanctions actually cared about safety, they'd just switch to wood bats and call it a day. Except that would hurt $300 bat sales, so can't do that...

 

[EAJuggalo]

As a casual player these days, the trend seems even more obvious to me. Change the stamp every ~5 years to encourage bat sales. The serious players stock up on bats (spurring sales), the casual players are forced to replace a bat they otherwise never would (spurring sales) and the bat companies can brag about their "new technology" (spurring sales). Everyone wins, except for the player...

There's been three different "legal" USSSA stamps within the past ~10 years, and yet all the bats still perform nearly identical? C'mon...

Sure, a new 240 might exit 5-10 mph slower than my OG Booger from 2005, but that's not making any meaningful difference. When shortstops are having to armor up like NHL goalies, you know something is still broken. If sanctions actually cared about safety, they'd just switch to wood bats and call it a day. Except that would hurt $300 bat sales, so can't do that...

Let's correct the factual inaccuracies and then we'll discuss your assertions. USSSA has changed the approval stamp twice in the last 30 years, in 2012 and 2020. You want to guess how many times USA has changed their stamp in the same time period? Three times, 2000, 2004 and 2015. The 2012 stamp, everyone was given two years before the hard ban went into place. the 2020, everyone was given 4 years before a tournament only ban went into place and six years before the hard ban goes into place. The bats don't perform anywhere near identical. I played with a couple Conference players before the 2012 stamp went into place and have been umpiring Conference for the last six years. There was a notable difference in both cases where the balls are not flying as far or as fast as they were before.
I've said for a year the biggest issue was that USSSA gave a stop production date rather than a stop sell date. This allowed manufacturers to ramp up production for the last 6 months, then stockpile them at retailers to continue to sell. Didn't help that not many bats were sold or broken in 2020. The expectation was that most of the bats would work their way out of the game naturally.
10 mph exit velocity difference is the difference between a pitcher dying and popping back up and staying in the game. If you let the players today swing that 2005 Booger, you'd be losing a pitcher every weekend due to broken bones.
Shortstops are not suiting up like NHL Goalies, some pitchers are suiting up like an NHL optional practice. The most any other fielder is wearing is a mask and cup. I've never seen shin guards, breezers, chest protector or full helmet.
Don't disagree with you about wood bats being safer. Who's going to be the first to do it? That's what's stopping it from happening right now. How many people are going to play that sanction when the others allowing composite bats. If USSSA does it you'd be here screaming about all the money you paid for a bat you can't use. USA can't do it because they have too many other programs besides adult slow pitch. One Nation won't do it because if they do anything player unfriendly they are going to cease to exist. WSL, ISA and the rest won't do it for the same reason.

 

[kweiss]

^^ Yeah, you definitely know more about this than I do. And I was admittedly exaggerating to prove a point. But as an outsider trying to keep up, those two stamp changes mean three different types of bats have been legal in the past 11 years. And yet each type still launches nukes. Just seems silly...

the 2020, everyone was given 4 years before a tournament only ban went into place and six years before the hard ban goes into place.

Am I understanding this correctly, that my 2013 "Thumb Print Stamp" Synergy will be illegal in 2026?

 

[EAJuggalo]

The 2020 stamp was announced in 2018

^^ Yeah, you definitely know more about this than I do. And I was admittedly exaggerating to prove a point. But as an outsider trying to keep up, those two stamp changes mean three different types of bats have been legal in the past 11 years. And yet each type still launches nukes. Just seems silly...



Am I understanding this correctly, that my 2013 "Thumb Print Stamp" Synergy will be illegal in 2026?

We started discussing the 240 here in April of 2019, I'm pretty sure I heard about it after Worlds in 2018. There will be a hard ban put into place at some point. Personally I'm expecting 2025, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was decided 2024. All it's going to take is one person filing a lawsuit over being hit in league.
The expected lifespan of a bat is two years. If you ask the manufacturers it's one year. Now we all know that bats generally last longer than that unless you're C or above. But that is what is driving the dates.

 

[TWmccoy]

Look at the balls. That's where the main problem lies. Hot bats and hard balls are NOT the answer. USSSA needs to go back to the classic + and stay with it. Introducing the Pro M was no good.

C+ balls perform pretty much the same across all climates, and are way safer than other balls.

A new Dudley Pro M is coming out, called the hard core. It's going to make matters even worse. Much harder than what's out now.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Look at the balls. That's where the main problem lies. Hot bats and hard balls are NOT the answer. USSSA needs to go back to the classic + and stay with it. Introducing the Pro M was no good.

C+ balls perform pretty much the same across all climates, and are way safer than other balls.

A new Dudley Pro M is coming out, called the hard core. It's going to make matters even worse. Much harder than what's out now.

That's the speculation but I don't see how they are going to do that when the stamps have specs assigned. I may have some better answers after I get back from Nashville at the end of the month. You and I may get some converts after the debacle that was Texas a couple weeks ago. They ran out of ProMs and had to use the Hot Dot Classic+ for a bunch of games, including the championship. Teams say they didn't see much of a difference.

 

[ilyk2win]

USA uses a 52/300 and it flies plenty well on 300' fields....and by plenty well I mean too well. Not sure about in stadiums though, but I guess we wouldn't know until we saw it.

 

[TWmccoy]

That's the speculation but I don't see how they are going to do that when the stamps have specs assigned. I may have some better answers after I get back from Nashville at the end of the month. You and I may get some converts after the debacle that was Texas a couple weeks ago. They ran out of ProMs and had to use the Hot Dot Classic+ for a bunch of games, including the championship. Teams say they didn't see much of a difference.

Classic +s are fine. I've hit them in all weather/humidity conditions. Even in places like Viera they do pretty well. One thing about C+ balls is you won't get a bunch of cheap HRs in cold weather like you do with other balls.

Also, when temps get near 100 and other balls won't fly, C+ will.

I hate the two extremes of softball.... when it's 40 degrees and you're hitting a Pro M or classic M that feels like a bowling ball. Teams hit all their HRs in 2 innings, and bats break all the time. Also, it can be 95 degrees and Pro Ms or classic Ms go nowhere. It's like hitting a dead pillow. C+ balls avoid all of that.

 

[TWmccoy]

USA uses a 52/300 and it flies plenty well on 300' fields....and by plenty well I mean too well. Not sure about in stadiums though, but I guess we wouldn't know until we saw it.

I umpire an ASA league that uses Tattoo .52 300. The balls are fine. I see plenty of horrible hitters going yard all the time. All you really have to do is use a good bat and get those balls in the air with a little spin.

ASA bats now are ridiculous. I'd say they're hotter than USSSA bats.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Look at the balls. That's where the main problem lies. Hot bats and hard balls are NOT the answer. USSSA needs to go back to the classic + and stay with it. Introducing the Pro M was no good.

C+ balls perform pretty much the same across all climates, and are way safer than other balls.

A new Dudley Pro M is coming out, called the hard core. It's going to make matters even worse. Much harder than what's out now.

I'm wrong. There is a new ball in play this weekend at Myrtle Beach. DW is saying it's a Pro-M with a very soft cover, labeled as "patent pending." My Worlds partner is down there, I'll ask him when he gets back how it is. I'm watching the games, Monsta seems to not be having any trouble hitting them out. 15 in three innings, and I know JMags has been trying to keep the ball on the ground this game.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Supposedly this is the ball that was tested at Toys for Tots in Palm Springs in December.

 

[TWmccoy]

Supposedly this is the ball that was tested at Toys for Tots in Palm Springs in December.
View attachment 72124

Yes. I played a Dudley bat provided tourny last weekend. A Dudley rep was there, and he had one of these balls just for show. It definitely has a soft cover. Reminded me of a Thunder Advance or an old X Rock with microcell.

The seams are low, and the ball looks like it's going to fly.

I wanted to buy one to test in BP, but the rep only had the one ball. He told me they would get here from China at some point later this year.

 

[ilyk2win]

As if bats aren't expensive enough, now USSSA is putting the burden of a "safer" game on the ball, which is driving the price of them up as well. Focus the issue with the bats being too damn hot, and the testing procedure not being representative of actual game use. When you see videos posted of batted ball speeds well in excess of 98 mph, IDC what ball is being used in the video, the bats are TOO HOT! Watch ANY E level tourney game and the "eye test" is proof enough.

 

[EAJuggalo]

Yes. I played a Dudley bat provided tourny last weekend. A Dudley rep was there, and he had one of these balls just for show. It definitely has a soft cover. Reminded me of a Thunder Advance or an old X Rock with microcell.

The seams are low, and the ball looks like it's going to fly.

I wanted to buy one to test in BP, but the rep only had the one ball. He told me they would get here from China at some point later this year.

I assume they will be like the ProMs were the first year and not available to anyone other than USSSA this year. I wouldn't be shocked to see them at Worlds, I'm interested to see them for myself in two weeks in Nashville.
Agree that top-tier USA bats are hotter than USSSA, have been since they instituted the slow pitch only stamp a few years ago.

As if bats aren't expensive enough, now USSSA is putting the burden of a "safer" game on the ball, which is driving the price of them up as well. Focus the issue with the bats being too damn hot, and the testing procedure not being representative of actual game use. When you see videos posted of batted ball speeds well in excess of 98 mph, IDC what ball is being used in the video, the bats are TOO HOT! Watch ANY E level tourney game and the "eye test" is proof enough.

The 98mph standard is the USA standard, about 5 years ago they changed their testing standard to allow bats to be hotter by changing the swing speed in the test from 95mph to 75mph. If you took any of the top Conference players and tested them on BBS before and after the change I'm sure you'd see many currently hitting 110+ that were at 98-100 before.

 

[TWmccoy]

As if bats aren't expensive enough, now USSSA is putting the burden of a "safer" game on the ball, which is driving the price of them up as well. Focus the issue with the bats being too damn hot, and the testing procedure not being representative of actual game use. When you see videos posted of batted ball speeds well in excess of 98 mph, IDC what ball is being used in the video, the bats are TOO HOT! Watch ANY E level tourney game and the "eye test" is proof enough.

I completely agree. Either the bats or balls need to be deadened. Honestly, I feel like the best combo is a fairly dead bat (300 compression) and a soft, lively ball (like a .52). That puts almost all of the burden on the ball.

When you have hard balls and hot bats you get ridiculous exit speeds even from lousy hitters with no bat speed.

If/when I run across any of those hard core Pro M's I'll hit them and do a thorough write up. Just based on what I saw I think they're going to be substantially better than the Pro Ms guys are used to hitting now.

 

[jbo911]

Yes. I played a Dudley bat provided tourny last weekend. A Dudley rep was there, and he had one of these balls just for show. It definitely has a soft cover. Reminded me of a Thunder Advance or an old X Rock with microcell.

The seams are low, and the ball looks like it's going to fly.

I wanted to buy one to test in BP, but the rep only had the one ball. He told me they would get here from China at some point later this year.

The tas they banned for being too hot. Sounds about right.

I had my hand broken through my glove with a classic m by a d player. I still have a brown mark on my calf from almost five years ago.

When tattoo ball did that call testing ten years ago the one classic m they tested ranked higher in the nocsae severity test than a red dot. More likely to crack a skull than a freaking 50/525, and ten years later utrip is still cool with that.

 

[jbo911]

Let's correct the factual inaccuracies and then we'll discuss your assertions. USSSA has changed the approval stamp twice in the last 30 years, in 2012 and 2020. You want to guess how many times USA has changed their stamp in the same time period? Three times, 2000, 2004 and 2015. The 2012 stamp, everyone was given two years before the hard ban went into place. the 2020, everyone was given 4 years before a tournament only ban went into place and six years before the hard ban goes into place. The bats don't perform anywhere near identical. I played with a couple Conference players before the 2012 stamp went into place and have been umpiring Conference for the last six years. There was a notable difference in both cases where the balls are not flying as far or as fast as they were before.
I've said for a year the biggest issue was that USSSA gave a stop production date rather than a stop sell date. This allowed manufacturers to ramp up production for the last 6 months, then stockpile them at retailers to continue to sell. Didn't help that not many bats were sold or broken in 2020. The expectation was that most of the bats would work their way out of the game naturally.
10 mph exit velocity difference is the difference between a pitcher dying and popping back up and staying in the game. If you let the players today swing that 2005 Booger, you'd be losing a pitcher every weekend due to broken bones.
Shortstops are not suiting up like NHL Goalies, some pitchers are suiting up like an NHL optional practice. The most any other fielder is wearing is a mask and cup. I've never seen shin guards, breezers, chest protector or full helmet.
Don't disagree with you about wood bats being safer. Who's going to be the first to do it? That's what's stopping it from happening right now. How many people are going to play that sanction when the others allowing composite bats. If USSSA does it you'd be here screaming about all the money you paid for a bat you can't use. USA can't do it because they have too many other programs besides adult slow pitch. One Nation won't do it because if they do anything player unfriendly they are going to cease to exist. WSL, ISA and the rest won't do it for the same reason.

This is a pretty poor take. You're normally much better than this. Was there an ASA stamp before 2000? The biggest problem with what you're implying here is that when ASA comes out with a new stamp, they don't automatically ban every bat with the old stamp like UTrip does. I don't have a metal bat to swing because my 220 alloy bat isn't legal anymore. So two changes since 2000 with UTrip banning WAY more bats during that time period.

Those booger speeds you're talking about must've been those last five swings before they pop, because I've been pitching for 18 years and they might compare to 240s. The 220s, especially with the no testing that was going on, were way hotter.

We are losing a pitcher every weekend due to broken bones. I think the pitcher for TG from here has already had seven surgeries on his hands. Xtreme couldn't finish the last Cincy Major because they ran out of pitchers.

Check out this guy saying my 220 kp will be way hotter, and then proceeding to hit at higher mph almost every swing with the 240 watermelon.

Utrip is going to end softball.