A real challenge

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
OK, so we all know that the bat/ball combo has gotten fairly out of control in terms of guys with sissy swings blowing balls 350' without even trying.

I finally found a place where things are different. USSSA Space Coast complex in Viera, FL. I played military worlds down there this past weekend and was shocked at how truly hard it was to hit balls out. I'm generally an Easton guy here in CO, but I didn't even bother with them down there. I swung a '16 DC41 the whole tourny. I've had this particular DC41 for 3 years now. I don't even swing it often in CO because I feel like its too much bat. Not the case in FL.

The balls I hit well went out, sometimes by 50' or more. However, any ball that was hit even an iota less than perfect would die out at 300'. Fields weren't huge, probably 320'. We were playing on the white fields at the new complex. Balls used were ZN classic Ms. The ball itself felt OK coming off the bat (not super mushy), but wouldn't fly well at all. I won't even say the wind was a huge factor, though it did blow fairly steadily and always the same direction.

We were allowed 6 HRs per game and I never saw a team use more than 4. Great majority of games I saw had 0 HRs. There was no bat testing and guys could essentially swing any USSSA bat they wanted.

I guess my point here is, I feel that at USSSA's new complex you need to be a legit HR hitter to hit HRs. I was able to get into a few balls pretty well, but even the most minor of mis hits fluttered and died in the OF. I know I've railed on about ZN classic Ms being too much ball, but in FL that isn't the case at all. You need a legit swing to put a ball out of a 320' field midday when its 92 degrees and humid out.

On a side note, I didn't think the stadium ball flew that great in the new stadium either. I watched a couple games there and saw a few HRs. Many seemingly well hit balls died at the fence. Wind seems to blow out of the LF corner there toward the 1B dugout. Not favorable for really any hitters. Righties were the only ones I saw hitting any HRs in the stadium.
 

Normy

Well-Known Member
I've never hit a Classic M. From what I've gathered, it's either all or nothing depending on mother nature. It would be a bat buster up here in Michigan..
 

Sloth91

Active Member
the wind almost always blows in from right towards 3rd/home and the humidity, especially at field level, is insane. in those conditions you have to hit the ball on the screws and get a lot of backspin. just out of curiosity, which division were you in (varsity a, b or intramural)? my brother played as well which is why i ask
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
the wind almost always blows in from right towards 3rd/home and the humidity, especially at field level, is insane. in those conditions you have to hit the ball on the screws and get a lot of backspin. just out of curiosity, which division were you in (varsity a, b or intramural)? my brother played as well which is why i ask

Varsity B. We were on the 320' fields the whole time. It was not easy to hit HRs.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I've never hit a Classic M. From what I've gathered, it's either all or nothing depending on mother nature. It would be a bat buster up here in Michigan..

Classic Ms are VERY dependent on temperature as to how they perform. In cool/cold weather they're rock hard and jump off pretty much any bat. In extreme heat/humidity they turn super mushy and don't bounce at all.

We used classic M ZNs for the Rocky mountain Shootout (CUSSSA event) here in CO a few weeks ago and the balls were super rocks. In FL they're like marshmallows.
 

4xtra

Player/Coach
I have played in Valdosta Ga and I found out very quickly that humidty absolutely affects the classic m big-time. We BP at night when it cools down and the ball was coming off the bat like a 47 core.
 

Hiltz

Built for comfort
I've never hit a Classic M. From what I've gathered, it's either all or nothing depending on mother nature. It would be a bat buster up here in Michigan..

I've never seen a Classic M here in Canada, but up until a few years ago we were using Worth Gray Dots. Same COR as a Classic M but 75lbs higher compression. Absolute garbage in the dead of summer (and it doesn't even get hot here like the southern US) but on a cool spring/fall day, they were terrifying.

Played a tournament one October that used them. Our first game was at 8am and it was 4*C, or 39*F for you cavemen. We hit our 2 allotted HR's plus 6 DBO's, the other team hit their 2 HR's and several DBO's. Guys taking 1/4 power Ichiro slaps and accidentally plopping them over the fence.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I've never seen a Classic M here in Canada, but up until a few years ago we were using Worth Gray Dots. Same COR as a Classic M but 75lbs higher compression. Absolute garbage in the dead of summer (and it doesn't even get hot here like the southern US) but on a cool spring/fall day, they were terrifying.

Played a tournament one October that used them. Our first game was at 8am and it was 4*C, or 39*F for you cavemen. We hit our 2 allotted HR's plus 6 DBO's, the other team hit their 2 HR's and several DBO's. Guys taking 1/4 power Ichiro slaps and accidentally plopping them over the fence.

Yeah, I hate Gray Dots. A couple leagues here used to use them. They seemed like heavy balls, and would turn ROCK hard in cold weather and destroy bats. I always thought Gold Dot .44 400s were a decent enough ball without being too hot. I'm not sure why they even delved into .40 balls. Those balls are too temperature sensitive.
 

J2009

Boom !!!!!
Here in Ks 90% of teams use classic m's and on 300 ft fields in 100 degree temps i dont see really any less hr hit, unless they are using old one or crappy ones. If you use a good ball it flys fine.
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
I also lived in Valdosta and there's a huge difference between 100 there and 100 in ks.

That being said, we played with zns this past weekend here too and they were noticeably less hot than the gsl classic Ms we usually hit.

This brings up two problems for me. One, obviously, the classic m is a terrible choice for a ball. It's too hot when cold and crap when it's hot. It varies to much by temp which means that it varies too much by geographical region. You play a Florida team at worlds and they're used to it, but you aren't because Ms are not like that here.

Moving the fences back is also a bad choice. Make it where hitting it 300 requires the same effort as hitting it 350 now by regulating the bats and balls, do whatever you want with the infield, and game on. You can move the fences and the bases, but you can't move the pitcher back. It fundamentally changes the game too much.
 

BigWhiffa

Underwear Researcher
i played on 310' with 15' fences this past weekend. you had to really ooop it out. it was only d i guess we only had 2 hr's. i love playing d/e on bigger fields because i can hit to all fields without worrying about hitting one out. most fields around here are 275-290.

i've seen guys hit screaming liners out on these fields that really have no business going out.
 
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J2009

Boom !!!!!
I also lived in Valdosta and there's a huge difference between 100 there and 100 in ks.

That being said, we played with zns this past weekend here too and they were noticeably less hot than the gsl classic Ms we usually hit.

This brings up two problems for me. One, obviously, the classic m is a terrible choice for a ball. It's too hot when cold and crap when it's hot. It varies to much by temp which means that it varies too much by geographical region. You play a Florida team at worlds and they're used to it, but you aren't because Ms are not like that here.

Moving the fences back is also a bad choice. Make it where hitting it 300 requires the same effort as hitting it 350 now by regulating the bats and balls, do whatever you want with the infield, and game on. You can move the fences and the bases, but you can't move the pitcher back. It fundamentally changes the game too much.

I dont think its that much difference 100 temp plus 60-70% humidity lol
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
I dont think its that much difference 100 temp plus 60-70% humidity lol


Hitting in KS vs hitting in FL is very much different. I've actually played in KS before with crappier balls than ZNs and it wasn't very hard to hit them out. Viera is right at sea level. Couple that with 320' fields and high heat and humidity and it makes for tough HR hitting conditions.

I'll go as far as to say that the ball seemed to fly worse there than it does in Orlando. Even though they're only about 60 miles apart.

Interestingly, we took BP at some field nearby that was 300'. One of the balls I hit out was a Hycor C+. The ball WAAYYY outflew a classic M ZN in those conditions. Maybe USSSA should give Hycors a try for worlds sometime. On the turf you wouldn't get the stupid bounces they're known for either.
 

jkwoody22

League ball huer
Isn’t space coast where the smash it vs monsta was, them hitting 52’s and nothing would go out there, super super soft lol, Made those guys look normal
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
Isn’t space coast where the smash it vs monsta was, them hitting 52’s and nothing would go out there, super super soft lol, Made those guys look normal

The wind in that stadium is not favorable for HR hitters. Seems to blow in all the time. Not hard, but you can definitely feel it.

I'd like to see those same guys play on that same field in August with ZN classic Ms. I bet you'd see as few (or fewer) HRs with those as you would with the .52s. From what I've seen I think C+s fly better at sea level in high heat/humidity than classic Ms do.
 

stork

Rocky Mountain Oyster aka DirtDog
Yeah, I hate Gray Dots. A couple leagues here used to use them. They seemed like heavy balls, and would turn ROCK hard in cold weather and destroy bats. I always thought Gold Dot .44 400s were a decent enough ball without being too hot. I'm not sure why they even delved into .40 balls. Those balls are too temperature sensitive.

We use Gold Dots up here in one town. They are a decent enough ball that holds up for league play. Can't remember any tourneys with them, but I don't pay much attention to balls unless they are crap.
Right, wrong or indifferent, my swing doesn't really change unless they are mush. Too old to change.
 

jhitman

Well-Known Member
OK, so we all know that the bat/ball combo has gotten fairly out of control in terms of guys with sissy swings blowing balls 350' without even trying.

I finally found a place where things are different. USSSA Space Coast complex in Viera, FL. I played military worlds down there this past weekend and was shocked at how truly hard it was to hit balls out. I'm generally an Easton guy here in CO, but I didn't even bother with them down there. I swung a '16 DC41 the whole tourny. I've had this particular DC41 for 3 years now. I don't even swing it often in CO because I feel like its too much bat. Not the case in FL.

The balls I hit well went out, sometimes by 50' or more. However, any ball that was hit even an iota less than perfect would die out at 300'. Fields weren't huge, probably 320'. We were playing on the white fields at the new complex. Balls used were ZN classic Ms. The ball itself felt OK coming off the bat (not super mushy), but wouldn't fly well at all. I won't even say the wind was a huge factor, though it did blow fairly steadily and always the same direction.

We were allowed 6 HRs per game and I never saw a team use more than 4. Great majority of games I saw had 0 HRs. There was no bat testing and guys could essentially swing any USSSA bat they wanted.

I guess my point here is, I feel that at USSSA's new complex you need to be a legit HR hitter to hit HRs. I was able to get into a few balls pretty well, but even the most minor of mis hits fluttered and died in the OF. I know I've railed on about ZN classic Ms being too much ball, but in FL that isn't the case at all. You need a legit swing to put a ball out of a 320' field midday when its 92 degrees and humid out.

On a side note, I didn't think the stadium ball flew that great in the new stadium either. I watched a couple games there and saw a few HRs. Many seemingly well hit balls died at the fence. Wind seems to blow out of the LF corner there toward the 1B dugout. Not favorable for really any hitters. Righties were the only ones I saw hitting any HRs in the stadium.

TW,

That's what I've been trying to convey on many posts here. We don't use Classic M's we use the Evils, but in the 90+ degree temps with many times 70% humidity throughout the Summer the balls turn to complete mush. I've seen the HR's decrease 75% over the last few years. We are allowed to use ASA or USSSA bats here. It doesn't seem to make much difference. The ball elevates into that haze and dies quickly. And you are correct, the only HR's I see in our leagues and there aren't many, are the ones hit totally on the screws. If you miss it just a little it dies on the warning track. Just my opinion, but I felt things were right when the dropped us down from the 47 cor 525 comp softball to the 44 cor 375 comps. It seemed like it was just right and mostly the guys that could hit HR's were the only ones doing it. I see guys now that use to hit 2-3 HR's a night telling me they have 5 for the season. Unfortunately, I see it discouraging some players. Problem is these new balls are here to stay. So unless the bat manufacturers can come up with new bats that can overcome these balls in the heat and humidity it will continue to stay like it is now.
 

TWmccoy

3DX Connoisseur
TW,

That's what I've been trying to convey on many posts here. We don't use Classic M's we use the Evils, but in the 90+ degree temps with many times 70% humidity throughout the Summer the balls turn to complete mush. I've seen the HR's decrease 75% over the last few years. We are allowed to use ASA or USSSA bats here. It doesn't seem to make much difference. The ball elevates into that haze and dies quickly. And you are correct, the only HR's I see in our leagues and there aren't many, are the ones hit totally on the screws. If you miss it just a little it dies on the warning track. Just my opinion, but I felt things were right when the dropped us down from the 47 cor 525 comp softball to the 44 cor 375 comps. It seemed like it was just right and mostly the guys that could hit HR's were the only ones doing it. I see guys now that use to hit 2-3 HR's a night telling me they have 5 for the season. Unfortunately, I see it discouraging some players. Problem is these new balls are here to stay. So unless the bat manufacturers can come up with new bats that can overcome these balls in the heat and humidity it will continue to stay like it is now.

Do yourself a favor and switch to X Rock .52 300s. They have a composite cover (Evils have leather). In those hot, humid places the leather does nothing but pick up moisture and get heavy. The balls turn to cantaloupes. I'm guessing you'd notice an instant improvement in guys going yard. I've hit .52s in FL before and I thought they actually flew pretty decent.

One thing I will say is that hitting ZNs in Viera last weekend was a bit of a wakeup call. In CO I can take lazy, aimless swings and still hit easy HRs. In FL you have to strike the ball perfectly and with a purpose. You also have to use a bat with some good barrel flex.
 

Hiltz

Built for comfort
Isn’t space coast where the smash it vs monsta was, them hitting 52’s and nothing would go out there, super super soft lol, Made those guys look normal

They were also hitting Worth Hot Dot .52's, universally regarded as one of the worst .52's made.

We hit Hot Dots here. I don't find them to be bad balls but I'm not in Florida. And I've never hit any other .52 to compare them to.
 

Normy

Well-Known Member
They were also hitting Worth Hot Dot .52's, universally regarded as one of the worst .52's made.

We hit Hot Dots here. I don't find them to be bad balls but I'm not in Florida. And I've never hit any other .52 to compare them to.
How they ever came up with "Hot Dots" is beyond me. Shoulda been Snot Dots. We play exclusively with those as well and from a safety standpoint, I'm thankful. Being a placement hitter really doesn't affect me much either.
 

ilyk2win

Addicted to Softballfans
TW are you the big guy on Peterson with the pronounced leg kick?

IMO part of the problem was how they stored the balls. Sitting in a bucket baking in the sun didn't do those balls any good that's for sure. Not sure what the solution is, but there has to be a better way to manage extra balls than baking in a bucket, esp the way the heat radiates off that turf.

Other than the ones I saw you hit (assuming ^that^ guy is you), I didn't see many go out during the day, but once the sun went down, they were flying out like crazy. The White Rawlings was the worst with the wind blowing straight in from LF.
 

dunkky

Well-Known Member
that's very good point. i can attest to this. i store the balls in my car all day(~100 F at least) and hit bp after work. i can see my usual distance is not there. i didn't feel bad cuz i knew what was causing it.

when i store that ball in room temp and hit bp. i see significant more distance increase. i am talking about 52s by the way.
 

Normy

Well-Known Member
that's very good point. i can attest to this. i store the balls in my car all day(~100 F at least) and hit bp after work. i can see my usual distance is not there. i didn't feel bad cuz i knew what was causing it.

when i store that ball in room temp and hit bp. i see significant more distance increase. i am talking about 52s by the way.
Believe it or not, I can actually poke one out every now and then on a cold Michigan day. That's about it though.
 

jkwoody22

League ball huer
We use hot dots here in sac area high heat, not a lot of humidity ball flys 300+ easy at night games, 80-90degrees but when it’s teally hot or a Asa day tourney, you have to muscle it
 

jbo911

Super Moderator
Staff member
I dont think its that much difference 100 temp plus 60-70% humidity lol
There's a reason it's called relative humidity. If you could play on black top in a light drizzle with 100 degree temps in ks that would feel like a typical afternoon in Valdosta.
 

D-ROCK13

Well-Known Member
If you think the zns get hard when its cold you should hit the gold dot extremes. Anything below 70 degrees and I cringe everytime I swing my combats lol
 
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