Did I get this right?

I

Iceman6409

Active Member
Here is the play. Runner on second, one out. Batter hits long fly ball to center. Clear catch is made and called. In the mean time the runner on second clearly leaves early and I see it and he beats the throw to third. During all this I can easily hear the team on the field is going to appeal runner leaving second early. Time out is not called at this point as the batter is now caught in a run down between first and second. The runner on third, who was the original runner on second who left early. sees this and sprints for home and crosses home plate before I call the run down runner out at second. Immediately the team on the field appeals the runner on second to which I call the runner out for leaving early. Batting team asks if runner scores. Initially I say yes because he beat the play at second. The team on the field approaches me and says the run should not count since the appeal play is the key part of the play. First out is in the books. Second out is the catch in center. Those are the easy ones. So I thought through what they were saying and agreed with them. They were right. Run should not have been allowed so I correct my call, which I can do since it is a rules call not a judgement call, and of course said team is now very unhappy with me.

They were not arguing at all about the third out. They felt that I made a call initially, albeit the wrong call, and that the other team "talked me into" changing my mind. Also they were trying to tell me once I make any call I have to stick with it. So my question to you good people is did I make the right call in the end AND did I have the right to change the call?
 
BretMan

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
You have every right to change your call- either a judgment call or a rule interpretation. There's nothing that says you can't. I just wouldn't recommend doing it very often, because it makes you look like you don't know what you're doing. Do this enough and your credibility will be shot. But...if you can correct an obviously wrong call, then correct it.

A runner who is called out on an appeal for not tagging up on a catch can NEVER have his run counted. Once appealed, then his run is negated.

I may have had him out even without the appeal. It sounds like the batter continued to run and draw a throw after being retired...interference by a retired runner, runner closest to home is out!
 
fitzpats

fitzpats

AKA - The Anti Ringer
Your description of the scenario is very confusing. You've got a batter making an out on a caught fly ball to center only to end up in a rundown between first and second. You've got a guy leaving second early on the caught fly ball only to have him score on the rundown of the batter-runner, and you want to call him out at second for leaving early and count his run because he crossed home before the appeal was made on him at second base?

At this point, I'm assuming you have R2 and R1 with one out and B3 up. B3 hits a fly ball that's caught. R2 leaves early and makes it to third base with R1 getting caught in a rundown and R2 continuing on to score. Once the play is done, defense appeals R2 leaving early, which you correctly call him out on because he left early. Because he left early, he is retired at that point and can not move up any bases so his run would not count.

If the situation is as you described, however, I would agree with BretMan as to declaring a dead ball and having the closest to home being called out for the deception by the batter/runner.
 
RDD15

RDD15

Addicted to Softballfans
Assuming there were two runners on base to begin the play, as your post is a bit confusing....

If out #2 was the catch, and out #3 was the runner that began on first being retired, you have a fourth out appeal play on your hands. I do not have a book on me, so no citation, but there is a provision in the rules for exactly this situation. A runner leaves a base early and scores prior to another runner being retired for the third out. The defensive team may appeal the runner leaving early as a "fourth out" and negate that run from scoring.
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
How can a runner (R1 on 2nd) be ruled out on the appeal and score on the same play? Just asking the question is somewhat ridiculous
 
SammyJaxxx

SammyJaxxx

Starting Player
The rundown is a red herring. It doesn't matter when that guy was out. The Runner who started on 2nd base and left early is out. He can't score.
 
D

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
4th out appeal. You have the second out on the caught fly ball...the third out on the runner in the rundown...then you make a 4th out appeal on the runner who left second base early.
 
T

TexasTransplant

Addicted to Softballfans
So what if you had a similar, but somewhat different situation. Two outs. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, ball hit onto the outfield grass. Runner from 3rd crosses the plate. Runner from 2nd is caught in a rundown between 3rd and Home and tagged out (3rd out), clearly after the runner from 3rd crosses the plate. After the rundown, defense sees that the batter has fallen coming out of the box and not reached first base. Can the defense throw to first for the force on the batter to negate the run?
 
D

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
TexasTransplant said:
So what if you had a similar, but somewhat different situation. Two outs. Runners on 2nd and 3rd, ball hit onto the outfield grass. Runner from 3rd crosses the plate. Runner from 2nd is caught in a rundown between 3rd and Home and tagged out (3rd out), clearly after the runner from 3rd crosses the plate. After the rundown, defense sees that the batter has fallen coming out of the box and not reached first base. Can the defense throw to first for the force on the batter to negate the run?
Click to expand...
Is the 3rd out the result of a force out?
 
D

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
TexasTransplant said:
No, the third out was recorded in the rundown. The force out would have occurred after the 3rd out.
Click to expand...

My apologies, I misread that...you can only use the 4th out appeal on a runner who has scored and either left a base too early on a fly ball or who missed a base. Look in the Rules Supplement area of the Umpire Manual under "Appeals".
 
J

JabNblue

Member
Yea I read that later myself. Actually I would be holding my left arm out if I saw the runner leave early if like in this case other things were still going on. So it would be a delayed dead bell until time has been called and an appeal was made before the next pitch.
 
D

DeputyUICHousto

Addicted to Softballfans
JabNblue said:
Actually I would be holding my left arm out if I saw the runner leave early if like in this case other things were still going on. So it would be a delayed dead bell until time has been called and an appeal was made before the next pitch.
Click to expand...
Why would you hold your left arm out as in a delayed dead ball?
 
Sully

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
You just let the play develop and see if the offended team appeals. You don't signal a delayed dead ball and tell them the runner left early. It's their responsibility to appeal that runner leaving early or it is assumed he tagged properly.
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
JabNblue said:
Yea I read that later myself. Actually I would be holding my left arm out if I saw the runner leave early if like in this case other things were still going on. So it would be a delayed dead bell until time has been called and an appeal was made before the next pitch.
Click to expand...

Huh? That is not a DDB
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
JabNblue said:
Basic ASA mechanics
Click to expand...

Jab, no, absolutely not. Anytime a runner leaves early on a caught fly ball, we do absolutely nothing until the defense appeals.

If a runner leaves early on a pitch, it's an immediate dead ball. Only in the NCAA do they treat that as a delayed dead ball, but that's not what we're discussing here.

There are absolutely no infractions that the offense can commit that would result in a delayed dead ball.
 
J

JabNblue

Member
Sully said:
He knows what the DDB signal is, he wasn't asking why your arm was out. He was asking why you would signal a DDB in that particular situation.
Click to expand...
Did nobody read the entire play. There was plays being made on other bases. There was a run down. Did you or would you stop the rundown play? If you can read and quote a rule book, read the entire entry. How do any of you proclaim dead ball while ball was in motion? What you going to do, weir on the appeal, then say, "players assume your positions continue run down" . If
any of you called dead ball...then you called it too soon. DELAYED DEAD BALL IF THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A DEAD BALL,!
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
JabNblue said:
Did nobody read the entire play. There was plays being made on other bases. There was a run down. Did you or would you stop the rundown play? If you can read and quote a rule book, read the entire entry. How do any of you proclaim dead ball while ball was in motion? What you going to do, weir on the appeal, then say, "players assume your positions continue run down" . If
any of you called dead ball...then you called it too soon. DELAYED DEAD BALL IF THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A DEAD BALL,!
Click to expand...

Bull ****ing ****
 
Sully

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
JabNblue said:
Did nobody read the entire play. There was plays being made on other bases. There was a run down. Did you or would you stop the rundown play? If you can read and quote a rule book, read the entire entry. How do any of you proclaim dead ball while ball was in motion? What you going to do, weir on the appeal, then say, "players assume your positions continue run down" . If
any of you called dead ball...then you called it too soon. DELAYED DEAD BALL IF THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A DEAD BALL,!
Click to expand...

Did you miss the bolded part below?


NCASAUmp said:
Jab, no, absolutely not. Anytime a runner leaves early on a caught fly ball, we do absolutely nothing until the defense appeals.

If a runner leaves early on a pitch, it's an immediate dead ball. Only in the NCAA do they treat that as a delayed dead ball, but that's not what we're discussing here.

There are absolutely no infractions that the offense can commit that would result in a delayed dead ball.
Click to expand...
 
Sully

Sully

Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
So you don't signal anything. You let the play finish. If they get the runner out in the rundown he's out. Then you see if the defense appeals the runner leaving second early. If they don't the runner in the rundown is the third out but the runner crosses the plate before the out so it scores. If the defense appeals after the play, the runner on 2nd is out and by rule can not score. You do not signal a DDB or kill the play with a dead ball. You just let it finish and see whether the defense even appeals. You definitely DO NOT signal a DDB and alert the defense that the runner left early. Do you also correct a batter batting out of order (without it being appealed) or signal a DDB when the wrong batter steps in the box?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top