ASA Double play throw hits runner

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gonks

Addicted to Softballfans
During an ASA game, nobody out and a runner on first, our 3rd baseman fielded a ball cleanly off the bat. He threw to middle IF who was waiting at second base. Clean, quick exchange there, and in turning to throw to first, the MInfielder hit the baserunner in the shoulder as he didn't get out of the base path (narrowly missing his face in fact). The baserunner was at best 2/3 of the way to second......just kept running straight down the base path. Umpires said he doesn't HAVE to slide....and consequently the batter ends up safe on first base. We get accused of "throwing at him" and end up in all of the escalation/arguing getting a warning from the umpires.

I understand he doesn't HAVE to slide...... But in taking one for the team like that isn't he interfering with the play at first?

Thanks!!!
 
MaverickAH

MaverickAH

Well-Known Member
Your umpire was 100% correct!

Even though the runner has been put out, he can't be expected to suddenly disappear. The runner is still entitled to his base path. As long as he stays on it & does nothing to interfere with any ongoing play, he's good.

It's the defense's responsibility to throw around the runner.
 
G

gonks

Addicted to Softballfans
Okay.....

Great explanation, and I thank you much! There are so many rules a person has "always heard about" but rarely see the plays that are affected by them when they actually happen. I've been playing for 25 years and have never seen it happen! Thx for the explanation. Gonks
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
gonks said:
During an ASA game, nobody out and a runner on first, our 3rd baseman fielded a ball cleanly off the bat. He threw to middle IF who was waiting at second base. Clean, quick exchange there, and in turning to throw to first, the MInfielder hit the baserunner in the shoulder as he didn't get out of the base path (narrowly missing his face in fact). The baserunner was at best 2/3 of the way to second......just kept running straight down the base path. Umpires said he doesn't HAVE to slide....and consequently the batter ends up safe on first base. We get accused of "throwing at him" and end up in all of the escalation/arguing getting a warning from the umpires.

I understand he doesn't HAVE to slide...... But in taking one for the team like that isn't he interfering with the play at first?

Thanks!!!
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Dumb move by your player. Why would you throw exactly where you know the runner is supposed to be?

Now, if the runner raised his/her hands to interfere or peeled off in the same direction the fielder moves to throw the ball, that may be INT But simply doing what one is entitled to do is not INT.
 
G

gonks

Addicted to Softballfans
Dumb move?

How can you claim a veteran quick move (he's actually a stud infielder) to be dumb? Normally when I'm running towards second and I'm out by a mile I peel towards the outfield. If it's going to be close I slide and get out of the way of the throw as a courtesy AND a face saver. So by ur explanation if the infielder peels towards the outfield to avoid the baseline and the runner gets hit out of the baseline because he's peeling then the base runner is OBSTRUCTING? That sounds dumb to me Irish. Our guy simply turned quickly to turn the play and accidentally hit him. There wouldn't be many double plays turned if every time the opportunity presented itself the infielder had to double check with the base runner and find out which way he's peeling off. It's a courtesy thing and after playing for over 25 years now I have never seen a base runner NOT peel when out by 20 feet until last night. I wud bet he won't do it again.....
 
sjury

sjury

The Old Man
It actually is a dumb move, like Irish said. If he's a veteran infielder then he should know to step inside or outside the base to make the throw, then the runner isn't in the way, by running in the basepath, ever. Only the fielder knows where they are going to throw the ball, AND where the runner will be. It's his job to avoid the runner with the throw, if they can't do it right then they shouldn't get the out. If the ball hitting the runner was an out, you'd have every douche in the world, throwing the ball into the runner if they don't know if they'll complete the play.
 
MaverickAH

MaverickAH

Well-Known Member
gonks said:
How can you claim a veteran quick move (he's actually a stud infielder) to be dumb? Normally when I'm running towards second and I'm out by a mile I peel towards the outfield. If it's going to be close I slide and get out of the way of the throw as a courtesy AND a face saver. So by ur explanation if the infielder peels towards the outfield to avoid the baseline and the runner gets hit out of the baseline because he's peeling then the base runner is OBSTRUCTING? That sounds dumb to me Irish. Our guy simply turned quickly to turn the play and accidentally hit him. There wouldn't be many double plays turned if every time the opportunity presented itself the infielder had to double check with the base runner and find out which way he's peeling off. It's a courtesy thing and after playing for over 25 years now I have never seen a base runner NOT peel when out by 20 feet until last night. I wud bet he won't do it again.....
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Any time you leave your base path on this type of play, you are subjecting yourself to being called for INTERFERENCE (The offense Interferes / The defense Obstructs). Not all middle infielders go to the inside or outside all of the time. You as a runner can't assume where they're going to be & do something else if you've already been put out. All you are supposed to do is either stop, slide or continue on the path you were currently on.

The defense knows where you're expected to be & it's up to them to make the adjustment. If you're not where you're supposed to be? Well..........
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
gonks said:
How can you claim a veteran quick move (he's actually a stud infielder) to be dumb? Normally when I'm running towards second and I'm out by a mile I peel towards the outfield.
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And what if the defender steps to the left to throw to 1B and hits you with the ball? That IS an act of interference, no intent is required.

If it's going to be close I slide and get out of the way of the throw as a courtesy AND a face saver. So by ur explanation if the infielder peels towards the outfield to avoid the baseline and the runner gets hit out of the baseline because he's peeling then the base runner is OBSTRUCTING?
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No, the runner is interfering

That sounds dumb to me Irish. Our guy simply turned quickly to turn the play and accidentally hit him. There wouldn't be many double plays turned if every time the opportunity presented itself the infielder had to double check with the base runner and find out which way he's peeling off. It's a courtesy thing and after playing for over 25 years now I have never seen a base runner NOT peel when out by 20 feet until last night. I wud bet he won't do it again.....
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Congratulations, I've umpired for over 48 years and guess what? Everything I've stated is true. And there are thousands of dueces turned every month, hell every week within the rules. OMG, how could the possibly happen? :wtf2: Because the good infielder knows the runner is going to be attempting to advance to the next base where s/he belongs and takes the nano-second to throw around the runner to complete the play.

Sounds like you give up on the play assuming the defense is going to make the put out. I had a runner do that in a World Cup (Plant City, 2002) game once. Want to know when I called the runner out? When he stepped into the dugout because the defender never touched 2B, but he "assumed" the SS was going to make the play.
 
sjury

sjury

The Old Man
^^^^ truth.... You know how many times the fielder never has control on a bad toss and boots a ball? Many times, but runners peel off, and give the fielder time to pick the ball up and tag the base. If runners knew how to run the bases properly and fielders knew how to properly turn a DP, there would be no need for this conversation.
 
vlcmstnaz

vlcmstnaz

volcom stone az
The way these guys explain in makes perfect sense. Asking the runner to "peal off" is the worst possible idea. Limit the variables and have the fielder make a MINOR adjustment and go around the runner, rather then have both guess where the other is going to be. Runner stays in base path and attempts to advance to 2b safely in case the fielder misplays the relay.
 
Dallusglockin

Dallusglockin

BP All-Star
From what I've seen and how I play, the return throw generally comes from the outside of the baseline. When I'm running to second on a rolo and am out by a long way, I'll peel off to the inside a few steps. I'm thinking 5 feet off the baseline should be good enough for most throws. But as a runner, you can't be oblivious to what's going on. And you have to have an understanding of where the return throw will come from.

It was an unfortunate play and I have been on the throwing side of it. It may be a lesson learned for both players.
 
rhound50

rhound50

Rec Coed Superstar
A veteran infielder should know that you should never make a throw directly down the basepath, if nothing else than to protect himself from a potentially sliding runner. This is one of the first things they teach middle infielders in baseball. On a throw from 3rd, the 2b should be coming across the bag and throwing on the inside of the baseline.
 
2TransAms

2TransAms

Droppin' 280 ft bombs
^This. When I throw, I'll always take a step one way or the other (preferably towards the throw) to make sure I don't hit the runner, and to make sure I don't get plowed. If I'm running I'll slide if it's close; if not I stay up, stay in the base path and block my head with my arms bc you never know.

If you could bob and weave to break up DP's, someone would've figured it out by now and been running the bases in full riot gear. But you can't, so stay in the base path and I'll return the favor.
 
G

gonks

Addicted to Softballfans
And again I'm strictly talking about a play where the runner was out by a mile. Geometry tells me to peel.....I don't care what way...but it is not very easy to get out of the way of a ball thrown from second to first when you are out by 20-30'. I don't give up. I play the game hard, I understand that if there's a bobble I may still end up being out, but at the same time I will reward a nice glove at third on a hot shot and give you infielders your chance to turn a well deserved double play. I peel because I have a job and a family. This is a common occurance from Major League Baseball all the way to adult Rec League softball. I do it as a courtesy...not as a quitter. I assure you if you knew me you would be happy to have me as a teammate. I'm as competitive as they come and I play hard. Again in this instance the guy was out by a long long way. He was a big guy and wasn't very fleet of foot. Our middle infielder would have had to step 4'-5' to either side to miss him. The batter was faster than average and our infielder simply tried to make a quick play. We don't play dirty. If the rule states we have to run directly down the base path after being clearly out then that's simply all I wanted to know. I will continue to peel and if I get hit by a double play ball while running towards the grass I will deal with that. Simply wanted a rule clarification. Thank you all!
 
BretMan

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
No, the rule doesn't say that you have to "run directly down the base path". You can veer off if you want to. Just be aware that if you do veer out of the base path, then subsequently get hit by the throw, you may then be guilty of interference.

There's a difference between veering, sliding, ducking, or dodging as a matter of self-preservation and doing it because the rule says you must.

A runner who is legally running the bases isn't expected to vanish the second he's put out, and isn't expected to read the fielder's mind to guess which way he's going to pivot and make the throw. The reasonable expectation afforded to the runner under the rules is that if he was in the baseline right before he was put out, then he will still be in the baseline right after he is put out.
 
rhound50

rhound50

Rec Coed Superstar
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkrdHjPG0rU[/ame]

You should show it to your 2b, good technique will keep him and base runners safe in the future.
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
gonks said:
And again I'm strictly talking about a play where the runner was out by a mile. Geometry tells me to peel.....I don't care what way...but it is not very easy to get out of the way of a ball thrown from second to first when you are out by 20-30'. I don't give up. I play the game hard, I understand that if there's a bobble I may still end up being out, but at the same time I will reward a nice glove at third on a hot shot and give you infielders your chance to turn a well deserved double play. I peel because I have a job and a family. This is a common occurance from Major League Baseball all the way to adult Rec League softball. I do it as a courtesy...not as a quitter. I assure you if you knew me you would be happy to have me as a teammate. I'm as competitive as they come and I play hard. Again in this instance the guy was out by a long long way. He was a big guy and wasn't very fleet of foot. Our middle infielder would have had to step 4'-5' to either side to miss him. The batter was faster than average and our infielder simply tried to make a quick play. We don't play dirty. If the rule states we have to run directly down the base path after being clearly out then that's simply all I wanted to know. I will continue to peel and if I get hit by a double play ball while running towards the grass I will deal with that. Simply wanted a rule clarification. Thank you all!
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IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE! How many times can you be told what the rule is before you stop the inane argument?
 
K

KD317

Addicted to Softballfans
MaverickAH said:
Your umpire was 100% correct!

Even though the runner has been put out, he can't be expected to suddenly disappear. The runner is still entitled to his base path. As long as he stays on it & does nothing to interfere with any ongoing play, he's good.

It's the defense's responsibility to throw around the runner.
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Is this the same call in USSSA?
 
Gulf Coast Blue

Gulf Coast Blue

Addicted to Softballfans
Stretch....I umpired my first game in 1978....Jr. Teenage Baseball and within that year moved to American Legion. There are some of us that have been umpiring a long time. Sadly, I am no longer one of them.

Joel
 
Y

yance

Addicted to Softballfans
SSUSA and our local ASA leagues have a rule that if you out going to second with less than 2 out you have to slide or get out of the way or it is interference.
 
rhound50

rhound50

Rec Coed Superstar
yance said:
SSUSA and our local ASA leagues have a rule that if you out going to second with less than 2 out you have to slide or get out of the way or it is interference.
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For real? Forcing a senior player to slide seems like an awesome way to get sued.
 
BretMan

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
yance said:
SSUSA and our local ASA leagues have a rule that if you out going to second with less than 2 out you have to slide or get out of the way or it is interference.
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Here's the problem I have with that, for your league or any other league.

A typical pivot at second base (catch, turn, and throw) might take less than a second. A runner going toward second base who's not yet out can be in the baseline. Less than one second later, he's out and now being in the exact same spot he was in less than a second ago is illegal.

There's no way a runner can go from trying to reach the next base to recognizing he's out and veering out of the way in less than a second! It takes at least that long for the umpire to declare him out after the base is tagged.

What this rule really requires runners to do is start getting out of the way before they're even put out or declared out. So, you just have to assume you're going to be out, and then act like you're out, before you're even out!

What if the fielder misses the base or drops the ball? Now you're not out, but you're at a tremendous disadvantage because since you were forced to act like you were already out you're not heading to the base any more.

And what if you do veer out of the baseline, because that rule requires you to, but the fielder comes off the side of the base and the runner still gets hit? Is that still interference, even though the runner complied with the rule?

If I'm a fielder playing under this rule, it seems like I'd have a tremendous incentive to try hitting the runner on every throw! No matter where the runner goes, or what he does, it's going to be interference. Free outs!
 
Hiltz

Hiltz

Built for comfort
gonks said:
I don't give up. I play the game hard, I understand that if there's a bobble I may still end up being out, but at the same time I will reward a nice glove at third on a hot shot and give you infielders your chance to turn a well deserved double play. I peel because I have a job and a family...

I do it as a courtesy...not as a quitter. I assure you if you knew me you would be happy to have me as a teammate. I'm as competitive as they come and I play hard.
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I don't think anyone was accusing you of lollygagging or playing dirty. But in this case, what you're doing as a "courtesy" isn't really helping. I play a lot of 2B and I ALWAYS expect the runner to be on the baseline. I adjust my pivot accordingly.

What you're doing is similar to stopping your car at a 4-way stop and waving someone through when you have the right of way. You're trying to be nice, but you're just causing confusion.
 
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