TWmccoy
3DX Connoisseur
Probably similar to Ultimate Evils. I think they're like .50 500. Crisp and bouncy, but not super hard. They fly about as far as anything out there.
Hard cores are ruining USSSA softball
- Thread starter TWmccoy
- Start date
Probably similar to Ultimate Evils. I think they're like .50 500. Crisp and bouncy, but not super hard. They fly about as far as anything out there.
40/375 are bricks. I'm not surprised they feel softer than those.
thelastsamurai
Addicted to Softballfans
I haven't played usssa in a while, Mn use to use classic m’s 40/325? What do they use now? I only have a couple of worth bp platinums, probably my favorite ball I’ve hit for bp.
Most places allow classic Ms, 40/325, or pro Ms, 44/400 or 375. I further which officially on the pro Ms. Multiple manufacturers confirmed you can't be that precise, and there's no difference between the old 44/375 and 44/400.
You'll need to check with them to be sure.
EAJuggalo
Addicted to Softballfans
MN still uses the Dudley SY Classic M for all of the MRPA tournaments, including state and nationals. WI will be using Dudley ProM's at state in a couple weeks.
TWmccoy
3DX Connoisseur
Played this past weekend using hard cores in very hot temps (high 90s). The balls didn't wilt a bit. They fly just as well in 95 degree weather as 50 degrees. Even on 320' fields it was too much ball, and I saw tons and tons of 400'+ HRs. I also saw lots of bad misses making it out for HRs as well.
One other thing about hard cores... they knuckle... a lot. TONS of bad/ridiculous knucklers with these balls. If you don't make a conscious effort to cut these things they dance all over the place.
I'm convinced more than ever that USSSA needs to get rid of hard cores. All the weak hitters are probably rejoicing at their newfound HR hitting abilities, but overall these balls don't benefit the game.
At this point I'd say the only time hard cores are worth using is on full sized baseball fields.
On a side note, in a head to head BP session against stadium balls, hard cores flew every bit as far. Hard cores are a little heavier, and penetrate through wind better.
I've played softball for 25 years, and hard cores are easily the hottest balls I've ever used during that time.
One other thing about hard cores... they knuckle... a lot. TONS of bad/ridiculous knucklers with these balls. If you don't make a conscious effort to cut these things they dance all over the place.
I'm convinced more than ever that USSSA needs to get rid of hard cores. All the weak hitters are probably rejoicing at their newfound HR hitting abilities, but overall these balls don't benefit the game.
At this point I'd say the only time hard cores are worth using is on full sized baseball fields.
On a side note, in a head to head BP session against stadium balls, hard cores flew every bit as far. Hard cores are a little heavier, and penetrate through wind better.
I've played softball for 25 years, and hard cores are easily the hottest balls I've ever used during that time.
EAJuggalo
Addicted to Softballfans
DW was asked which ball is better between the Hard Core and the Stadium. He barely thought about it before he answered Hard Core. Selfishly, I'm all for it at D and E, games go really quick. It's not a good thing for the game and I hope they aren't using them at Worlds, a pitcher is going to get seriously hurt when everyone has to go middle to keep it in the park.
stang7222
Addicted to Softballfans
I think the current USSSA bat/ball combo in D and E is already a bit too hot.
I've seen plenty of E ballers get beat up. The combo of true E/rec players on defense and sandbagging D guys hitting is begging for injury as it is and I've seen it a handful of times this year already.
The current bat/ball combo in D plays much truer. Most defenders in D can at least handle the exit velocities I've seen these last 2 seasons.
TWmccoy
3DX Connoisseur
I think USSSA needs to move the temp fences at Viera back to 325' for ALL men's divisions, and not use hard cores other than in the stadium or on the red fields without temp fences.
Put A and AA worlds on the red fields and let them hit hard cores. Maybe even B. Everyone else, use regular ZN Pro Ms on 325'. Hitting HRs with regular ZNs on 325' fields with 240 bats is doable, but you actually have to earn them. I don't mind that a bit.
USSSA keeps dumbing down the game, and I don't like it.
TWmccoy
3DX Connoisseur
Here in CO I see a lot of good IFers at the upper level (C and B) who can't even field nasty shots with hard cores. Those balls get by them before they can even blink. Honestly, I'm surprised no one has been significantly hurt yet.
If USSSA insists on using such a ball they're going to have to deaden the bats again. Hard cores and 240 bats is ludicrous.
stang7222
Addicted to Softballfans
No hardcores here in NJ. The infileds at the two most frequently used parks are nearly unplayable as it is, I couldn't imagine using such hot balls out here.
ilyk2win
Addicted to Softballfans
Honestly, USA bat/ball combo is hotter than the USSSA bat/ball combo when using Classic M's and above 75* IMO. As an example this past Sat we hit Tattoo Classic M's in mid-high 80's, allowing 220 bats as well. Homers were hit, but not at the pace I see in USA. Also, the HR derby was kind of pathetic and the longest shots I saw were hit using a USA Demarini bat.
Sunday the temps were hotter and I umpired 3 games in the middle division playoffs for a USA league here, very few tourney level guys and several bombs were launched.....much further than the Classic M's with a lot of hard hit balls and on some really ****ty pitches.
I'm glad I'm near the end, bc it's crazy what technology has done for many of these $0.02 swings.
DirtBag215
Well-Known Member
I got some hardcores for free and hit a couple in BP. Holy **** they fly. I’ve seen them hit but haven’t hit any myself. I cut one and it went about 325 12’ off the ground the whole time.
I would possibly agree with you above 80, but I'm not sure about at 75. Granted, I haven't hit a new usa only bat since they changed their test.
Even at 90 I'd rather be hit with a usa ball than a classic m. They didn't fly but they're still bricks if they hit you
My issue is they are pro Ms. If they're called them pro m plus or just the new stadiums if be fine with them.
Reasonable people don't think we can hit any legal utrip ball. We don't have teams trying to hit classic ws or stadiums regularly. We do have teams saying why are they hitting a pro m but I can't hit mine, and they're right! It shouldn't have ever been given the same "classification".
The wsl ball is fine if we're not going classic plus across the board below conference. That 44/400 isn't too hot in most temps, and isn't insanely dangerous in the cold. Drop the classic m completely, rename the hc, and go all pro Ms of a lesser variety of they don't have the balls to make the classic plus the across the board choice.
If they aren't making the classic plus the main ball, I would highly recommend calling it the classic league, and encouraging it's use for rec leagues around the country.
TWmccoy
3DX Connoisseur
ASA bats are very hot, but .52 300 balls also do way better in the heat than classic Ms.
If your USSSA league used hard cores you'd be singing a different tune. I don't see .52 300 balls hit anywhere NEAR as far as hard cores.
I'll agree that technology is out of control. Hitters don't have to power through the ball anymore to achieve good distance. Now they just slap at the ball with ridiculously hot bats.
TWmccoy
3DX Connoisseur
Here's what I'd do if I were USSSA. Ditch the hard core entirely or ditch the stadium. One or the other should go, and the ball that's kept should be used in stadiums. However, calling the hard core a Pro M is ludicrous. That ball does NOT perform like a .44 375 ball, and calling it one is asinine.
Ditch the classic M. Those balls suck, plain and simple. Too hard in the cold, and too mushy/dead in the heat. All using those balls does is encourage bat altering because the balls are so bad.
USSSA SHOULD go to C+ balls primarily, but they won't. IMO that would make for a more even, safer game overall.
If USSSA is going to keep the Pro M (and it looks like they are) they should allow only single layer covers.
For one year I'd like to see USSSA use a good C+ ball in Viera for worlds and see what happens. In heat/humidity C+ balls fly just fine.
I agree that USSSA should market a ball just for league, and that it should be a C+ (or something very similar). All the leagues around here use .52 300 balls, and no one has a problem with them.
EAJuggalo
Addicted to Softballfans
Completely agree with the first sentence. No men's games should be played using the temp fences at 300'. It will also make the tournaments safer as you won't have outfielders going over or through the temp fences. If you limit B and above to the baseball fields you are penalizing a lot of the teams. I think only the Major should be played on the baseball fields, every other men's division should be played at 325' with the ProM.
Ditch the stadium, ditch the Classic M, only two balls are legal for tournament play. The Classic+ and the ProM. Of course here we've used the Worth ProM, and it flies about as well as a Classic M in 90° heat.
TWmccoy
3DX Connoisseur
Quick blurb about hard cores....
Yesterday I did BP on a full size baseball field (CF- 387'). I brought 6 stadiums and 6 hard cores. Surprisingly, the stadiums outflew the hard cores. They are lighter balls, and seem to just come off the bat easier. One other factor... I notice hard cores aren't easy to generate spin with. Most times when I hit them they knuckle or sidespin. They still fly plenty far, but rarely did I smash them with pure backspin.
Top distance was about 400', and I did it twice with stadiums. Hard cores were shorter, but not by much.
Hard cores penetrate headwinds better, but overall I'd say stadiums fly a little further and are easier to elevate with spin. I think the extra weight of the hard core kinda works against it.
Yesterday I did BP on a full size baseball field (CF- 387'). I brought 6 stadiums and 6 hard cores. Surprisingly, the stadiums outflew the hard cores. They are lighter balls, and seem to just come off the bat easier. One other factor... I notice hard cores aren't easy to generate spin with. Most times when I hit them they knuckle or sidespin. They still fly plenty far, but rarely did I smash them with pure backspin.
Top distance was about 400', and I did it twice with stadiums. Hard cores were shorter, but not by much.
Hard cores penetrate headwinds better, but overall I'd say stadiums fly a little further and are easier to elevate with spin. I think the extra weight of the hard core kinda works against it.
Tell this to the big wigs at the umpires meetings.
EAJuggalo
Addicted to Softballfans
I have. Decision is made on the admin side, not the officiating. It's Sean Melvin and Jim Pilla that would have to bring it to the convention.
ilyk2win
Addicted to Softballfans
JP uses 2 different balls in the same tourney depending on which field you're on (Pro M on 2 fields -- Classic M's on the other 2 fields) and you get 1 new ball each game then 3 y/o BP balls as backups. Doubt he ruffles any feathers about talks of balls, and certainly not with any educated stance.
stang7222
Addicted to Softballfans
That D tournament I last saw you at was pretty laughable. I know all balls are suspect when it's 98 degrees but to have zero HRs on 300' fences in 4 games should tell you something.
TWmccoy
3DX Connoisseur
That's why teams should supply their own balls at tournies. If you can't hit YOUR OWN balls out, that's on you. I hated the old days when TDs provided balls. You'd get a new one to start the game, but all the used balls afterward were TRASHED. Like, sun bleached, lopsided, no writing left on them, etc.
BTW, no TD should use 2 different types of ball in the same tourny. That's utterly stupid.
ilyk2win
Addicted to Softballfans
It's usually pretty bad here. TD is unapproachable so bad that even saying hello to the guy gets him very defensive and then he'll go on and on explaining something about the tourney when in reality a player simply said "Hi" to him. Not sure how the other director in the State uses the same fields, plenty of new balls, buys his umpires lunch, gives $$ to winning teams and still makes money, but the USSSA guy been using the same backup balls seemingly for 6 years (exaggerated a little), doesn't give awards aside from a trophy and a picture on FB. You can't discuss anything with him....but he makes himself available to USSSA in FL so he gets his.
I drove to work this morning in ky in August in temps below 60. It's not an exaggeration that the classic m is way too much ball for over half the year here.
I'll look for those two guys on LinkedIn lol.
I know y'all aren't consulted, but you should be since you're on the field to see how these changes actually work.
stang7222
Addicted to Softballfans
@ilyk2win posted above a very realistic critique of Jim Pilla. Ilyk2win is in my view a very respected, and respectful player here in NJ. If Pilla won't give him a minute or two to discuss these things, I doubt a few umpires from 6 states away will carry any sway.
Without sounding like I wanna blow him in the porta-john, ilyk2win should be among the top few valued opinions on slowpitch in our state. He's played at all of the levels in all of the associations. When he's not playing, he's umpiring. Again, if his opinion isn't valued, nobody's is.
I was joking. I'm the opposite of how you describe ilyk2win, but not because I'm wrong. I just say wait and see now when people tell me I'm crazy.
I'll give my opinion if asked, but rarely bother anymore. Utrip basically did nothing after that former college baseball player was killed while pitching a few years ago. I rarely waste my breath locally for the same reason.
stang7222
Addicted to Softballfans
I didn't hear about that. Details?
EAJuggalo
Addicted to Softballfans
I've been told he actually has a new job with USSSA National. He wears a lot of hats. He's state director for NJ, IL and WI. Deputy commissioner of the Women's Conference and now is also second in command of Slow Pitch nationally. I'll be seeing him in a few weeks at Conference Championships and then again at D Worlds.