USSSA Offensive Team outside the dugout

[Craig #7]

I'm new to umpiring, but play tourney ball. It is crazy of how much many rules I just don't know.

Situation last night...

The Offensive Team has been out of their dugout in the field of play.

I have a runner on 1st and a ball hit to the OF, runner tries to take 3rd. The OF'er throws ball towards 3rd and overthrows his 3rd basemen. The ball hits the Offensive Team and stays in play.

If the team was not in the field of play the ball would of went into the dugout and the runner would of been awarded home.

I ruled the ball dead and runner to stay put at 3rd.

The Defensive Team states that the closest runner should be called out for interference.

I research the rule after the game and could find anything on this situation. I did happen to find that if the ball would of hit Offensive Equipment the closest runner would of been called out, but not if it hits players outside the dugout.

What would be the correct call?

 

[Sonic625]

Rule 8.5 K

 

[EAJuggalo]

If they started the play outside the dugout you never should have allowed the pitch to happen in the first place. If they moved out of the dugout after the pitch then it's absolutely interference and the runner closest to home should have been called out. I'm lucky in that my state added a rule this year stating that if anyone other than the base coaches and on deck batter is in the field of play they are ejected along with the manager, I haven't had a problem yet this year with it.

 

[Craig #7]

Good to know...Thanks for the rule reference Sonic625...

 

[rhound50]

We had this happen in a tournament, bottom of the 6th we are up by 1, tying run is going to third. Ball is overthrown to third and hits a player outside the dugout as it rolls into the dugout. Runner at 3rd instead of scoring the tying run is out for his teammates interference, ball game.

 

[BretMan]

This is one of the USSSA rules I don't like. Generally, interference is only called when a player actually, well, interferes with a play. By "a play" I mean an actual attempt to retire an offensive player where the out is a reasonable possibility. So, offensive player prevents an out...defense gets rewarded with an out.

On this play, did the ball contacting the player out of the dugout in any way prevent the defense from making an out? Did it allow the runners to advance further than they would have or give them some sort of advantage they didn't have? Doesn't sound like it did.

For most of the softball world, the ruling in the OP would be dead ball, runners return to last base attained at the time the ball was touched. No out is called UNLESS the player contacting the ball actually interfered with the defense's opportunity to make an out (ie: retire an offensive player).

The USSSA rule is absolute. It doesn't allow the umpire to judge if an out was possible or a play was actually impeded. There's no wiggle room- touch the ball, get an out, no matter what. This can reward the defense with a free out just because they made a crappy throw or couldn't catch the ball. I don't like interference rules that award outs when an out was not the reasonable or expected outcome of the play.

 

[Hebrew Hacker]

This is one of the USSSA rules I don't like. Generally, interference is only called when a player actually, well, interferes with a play. By "a play" I mean an actual attempt to retire an offensive player where the out is a reasonable possibility. So, offensive player prevents an out...defense gets rewarded with an out.

On this play, did the ball contacting the player out of the dugout in any way prevent the defense from making an out? Did it allow the runners to advance further than they would have or give them some sort of advantage they didn't have? Doesn't sound like it did.

For most of the softball world, the ruling in the OP would be dead ball, runners return to last base attained at the time the ball was touched. No out is called UNLESS the player contacting the ball actually interfered with the defense's opportunity to make an out (ie: retire an offensive player).

The USSSA rule is absolute. It doesn't allow the umpire to judge if an out was possible or a play was actually impeded. There's no wiggle room- touch the ball, get an out, no matter what. This can reward the defense with a free out just because they made a crappy throw or couldn't catch the ball. I don't like interference rules that award outs when an out was not the reasonable or expected outcome of the play.

It also allows the defense to peg someone on the offense who's standing outside the dugout and get a free out. It'd warrant an ejection for the defensive player, but it's conceivable that this play could occur with 2 outs in the last inning with the offensive team rallying to tie or take the lead.

 

[USA All the wAy]

So BretMan you're saying in ASA you do not have an out in rhound50's play unless in your judgement the defense could have made a play.
Rule citation?

On a side note good luck keeping the players in there dug-outs.

 

[NCASAUmp]

So BretMan you're saying in ASA you do not have an out in rhound50's play unless in your judgement the defense could have made a play.
Rule citation?

On a side note good luck keeping the players in there dug-outs.

8-5-G-3.

And why the hell do all these knuckleheads feel the need to stand outside of the dugout when they're not on deck? Do they need someone's hand to hold or something?

Get back in the dugout.

 

[USA All the wAy]

Thanks!

8-5-G-3

3. If the ball becomes blocked due to offensive equipment not involved in
the game.
EFFECT: The ball is dead and runners are returned to the last base
touched at the time of the blocked ball. If the blocked ball prevented
the defense from making an out, the runner being played on is out.

 

[stickin2j]

8-5-G-3.

And why the hell do all these knuckleheads feel the need to stand outside of the dugout when they're not on deck? Do they need someone's hand to hold or something?

Get back in the dugout.

This^. They never should have been outside the dugout in the first place, which is why Bretman's and HH's argument is unnecessary.

 

[BretMan]

This^. They never should have been outside the dugout in the first place, which is why Bretman's and HH's argument is unnecessary.

Oh, I agree. They shouldn't be, but sometimes they are and then you have to deal with it.

My only ejection of the season was over this issue. A coach wanted to plant himself outside the dugout, in live ball area, while his team was in the field. I politely told him that he needed to be inside the dugout. He not-so-politely told me that he didn't have to.

Wrong answer...and it went downhill from there. He wanted to delay the game to engage in an extended argument about his right to coach his defense from outside the dugout. After I repeated myself several times that he needed to be in the dugout, finally I just said screw it and ejected the guy. He had his chance. Instead of complying, he wanted to argue it. See ya later...

Probably a dozen times more this year I've asked coaches or players to get in the dugout. Everytime, they act like they've never heard of that before and a few claim that "no umpire has ever told us that".

In short, when I'm working a game I do everything I can to keep them in the dugouts. Still, somebody might slip out when I'm not looking, or run out during a play. Then you deal with it as outlined in the rule book.

 

[andy-rockstar]

What's the rush to get out of the dugout anyway? It's not like you can take your beer on the field with you.

 

[PHX5054]

Hypothetical question here. No players outside of the dugout previous to the pitch. During the play a member of the offensive team see tehre's a chance for a play at 3rd and runs out of the dugout to coach 3rd base (no coach there previosuly) and is hit with the ball. WHat's the call?

 

[NCASAUmp]

Hypothetical question here. No players outside of the dugout previous to the pitch. During the play a member of the offensive team see tehre's a chance for a play at 3rd and runs out of the dugout to coach 3rd base (no coach there previosuly) and is hit with the ball. WHat's the call?

If they weren't in the coach's box at the time of the pitch, then they aren't a base coach.

 

[Hebrew Hacker]

This^. They never should have been outside the dugout in the first place, which is why Bretman's and HH's argument is unnecessary.

It's necessary for the fact that it happens, and it's not a rare occurrence. You're telling me you've never seen players standing outside their dugout in the live-ball area?

I'm not saying that the players should have the right to be there...but I also don't think that the defense should be given the opportunity for a free out that could also result in the injury of the moron being where he shouldn't be. I think ASA has a more rational rule for this than utrip, that's all.

 

[Pylon #00]

I will give them one on deck batter and two guys straddling the poles at the opening of the dugout. I make it clear in the pre-game that if they are outside the dugout and a ball hits them, I will call it offensive interference and what the penalty is.

All the guys saying "good luck keeping them in the dugout"... I do the same thing whether I am umpiring a Conference event or a league game. Take control of the field at the beginning of the game and there should be no problems...

 

[rhound50]

I will give them one on deck batter and two guys straddling the poles at the opening of the dugout. I make it clear in the pre-game that if they are outside the dugout and a ball hits them, I will call it offensive interference and what the penalty is.

All the guys saying "good luck keeping them in the dugout"... I do the same thing whether I am umpiring a Conference event or a league game. Take control of the field at the beginning of the game and there should be no problems...

Good lord you are an umpire? I guess since you can't throw a strike you might actually learn what they are by umpiring.

 

[Pylon #00]

Good lord you are an umpire? I guess since you can't throw a strike you might actually learn what they are by umpiring.

get some new material guy.....

I thought your interwebz was down? Get back to work!

And for the record, I throw WAY better underhand than I do overhand....

 

[rhound50]

get some new material guy.....

I thought your interwebz was down? Get back to work!

And for the record, I throw WAY better underhand than I do overhand....

Interwebz was down which left me with nothing else to do but read SBF on my phone.

The last place explains why you are now an umpire.

 

[obagain]

I wish more umps would take charge.
I routinely see 5-6 guys standing outside the dugout and also have 8-10 bats outside the dugout leaning on the fence.

 

[NDBlue]

What's the rush to get out of the dugout anyway? It's not like you can take your beer on the field with you.

I think there might be an unwritten rule in Utrip that does allow you to take your beer on the field with you.

 

[VF500Racer]

I wish more umps would take charge.
I routinely see 5-6 guys standing outside the dugout and also have 8-10 bats outside the dugout leaning on the fence.

That's why at least here in NTX, USSSA's very strict rule makes some sense.
WAY too many people milling outside the dugout, I think they
just got tired of dealing w/ it at tournaments.