That rule has absolutely nothing to do with the play posted, it is simply saying a runner is not out if they do not run in a direct line between the 2 bases.
Any touching bases
- Thread starter jonsey
- Start date
That rule has absolutely nothing to do with the play posted, it is simply saying a runner is not out if they do not run in a direct line between the 2 bases.
LIKEUCM
Member
I would have a difficult time calling this runner out on appeal. Do we really consider the act of a player moving in the direction of first base to avoid being hit by a batted ball, as running the bases? I think we all know when a runner has rounded 2nd base and is required to retouch after that long fly ball is caught. In this post we are talking about a line drive base hit. This player is clearly not running back to first base. There must be times were we consider the intent of the rules, as we apply them.
great forum but seems like many times there ends up being different answers, I wrote an e-mail to a ASA/USA Fla UIC this was his reply,
No. he was establishing his base path in avoiding the line drive. (Unless it was caught) He already was starting at 2nd so there is no need to retouch.
Why would he need to touch base again? If he fell towards third, would he need to touch second? NOOOOOO. This has nothing to do with base touching or retracting, it’s all about safety. Doesn’t matter where they moved out of the way of ball, good going good hustle.
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
That's hilarious. Why would the runner have to return to 2B if he fell toward the base to which he is advancing?
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Did you send Matt the OP or an recap?
My reading isn't just moving toward 1B, but as the OP states, back off the base and then toward 1B. Is there a matter of distance toward 1B that would make a difference in making a call? What if the defense caught the runner off 2B and the runner took a step toward 1B and then the ball was overthrown @ 1B. Would you award 3B and allow the runner to now go directly to 3B?
LIKEUCM
Member
Irish, the OP said "the runner jumped back off the bag and stumbled backward toward 1st base, when he regained his balance he ran just in front of 2nd base to 3rd". He is not running the bases back to first base. If he gets caught off of second base and he is moving toward 1st base to avoid a defensive play, we have a different set of circumstances. In your example above, we would then clearly require him to touch second base on the advance to third base on the award. If we take a moment to vizualize the original post in our minds, I would like to believe that we would not rule this runner out on appeal at 2nd base. We would not put a batter runner in jeopardy that touched and stumbled over first base and fell towards second base.
GOING 4 THIRD
Member
So like, who won, Irish or Joker?
Irish, I sent the same scenario minus the part on if it would need to be an appeal play....my e-mail to him is below
I know if you advance past a base and then need to return to the previous base as on a caught fly ball that you must re-touch the base that you passed. This happened the other day, runner on 2nd and the batter hits a line drive up the middle that almost took the runners head off, the runner jumped back off the bag and stumbled backward toward 1st base, when he regained his balance he ran just in front of 2nd base to 3rd and didn't re-touch 2nd, should he have had to re-touch 2nd before going to 3rd?
Irish, as far as your question if runner was avoiding being hit by a batted ball as in my scenario even with him stumbling back he only moved a couple steps it's not like he was running toward 1st. as far as him being caught off 2nd? do you mean as in a tag play and he backed up and headed to 1st to avoid the tag? if he only, as you say took a step then he should have EASILY been able to be tagged out, If he was actually running a few steps toward 1st then I would have him out for running the bases in reverse order. remember 1st base wuld have been occupied by the batter because the line drive was not caught.
SammyJaxxx
Starting Player
This is the correct answer with the correct reasoning.
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
That wouldn't apply.
People want a rule. There is none in the rule book which states a player must run from the bases in a specific order. Yet, it has always been a given that the legal order is 1st, 2nd, 3rd & home. My point, there is no exception noted that allows for a runner to pass a base between the runner and a base to which s/he is advancing.
The reason I mentioned the wording is if, IMO, the runner moved off 2nd laterally, no problem. However, if the runner jumped bad, the runner has now placed a base between his/her position and the next base. Why would you not expect the runner to touch that base?
USA case play.
PLAY 8.3-2
With one out and R1 at 1B, B3 hits a single to right field. R1 rounds 2B, and seeing the ball thrown to 3B, returns to 2B. R1 steps over 2B as the thrown ball goes into right field. R1 turns around and advances to 3B safely, but during the advance, fails to touch 2B on the way to 3B. The defense appeals R1 should have retouched 2B before advancing to 3B.
RULING: R1 is out on appeal. When a runner is advancing or returning to a base, all bases must be touched in order. (8-3A)
PLAY 8.3-2
With one out and R1 at 1B, B3 hits a single to right field. R1 rounds 2B, and seeing the ball thrown to 3B, returns to 2B. R1 steps over 2B as the thrown ball goes into right field. R1 turns around and advances to 3B safely, but during the advance, fails to touch 2B on the way to 3B. The defense appeals R1 should have retouched 2B before advancing to 3B.
RULING: R1 is out on appeal. When a runner is advancing or returning to a base, all bases must be touched in order. (8-3A)
the difference is in your case play the runner was retreating and then advancing purposely, not avoiding being hit by a batted ball
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Actually, you do not know that, it is not a given of the scenario. Also, please show me in Rule 8 where there is any exception for avoiding being hit by a batted ball.
Actually, you do not know that, it is not a given of the scenario. Also, please show me in Rule 8 where there is any exception for avoiding being hit by a batted ball.
irish, actually it was a given, he was forced to go to 2nd on the base hit and then chose to round the bag and then again chose to return to 2 nd and basically over-ran the bag, that type of base running was done purposely, and far different than a runner ducking back to avoid being hit by a batted ball. As stated in an earlier post by someone---I think you have to look at intent of the runner, and also in the RULING on (R1 When a runner is advancing or returning to a base, all bases must be touched in order. ) the runner was doing neither of these
I hope everyone has a great Thanksgiving
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Reread it. It says he stepped over, didn't state why and there is no intelligent reason to do so, so I question whether it was intentional or not.
The only "intent" of which anyone can be sure is that the runner was attempting to advance to the next base. And show me where "intent" has anything to do with the rule.
Same here from The Guthrie Center in Great Barrington, MA[/QUOTE]
MaverickAH
Well-Known Member
Based on the current climate & rash of scandals, you shouldn't proceed to touch any bases without getting permission to do so. You shouldn't go to 1st, 2nd or 3rd base & heaven forbid if you go all the way prior to receiving permission!
Better yet, get it in writing...........
Better yet, get it in writing...........
Based on the current climate & rash of scandals, you shouldn't proceed to touch any bases without getting permission to do so. You shouldn't go to 1st, 2nd or 3rd base & heaven forbid if you go all the way prior to receiving permission!
Better yet, get it in writing...........
Signed by multiple witnesses.
Exactly not even close to the same situation. if you read what you posted the runners were actively running bases, not dodging a line drive trying to not get hit.
I was making my case in point, he did NOT have to touch the base again at all in this situation.
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Ludicrous example. Think about it
Sully
Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
So we have a Florida UIC that says no and a sort of close sorta Case Play that says yes in that particular situation. Did anyone ask any of the higher ups in USA or are we just going to speculate back and forth with no real clarification from USA softball on what is obviously a rare situation not specifically covered by a rule.?
Isnt the easiest thing to get national to rule on something. Have to run through chain of command to get it to the national level and depends completely on their decision on if it goes up the chain or not. About 3 months ago I posted an obstruction play on a large umpire forum and got over a thousand responses, many of them also UIC's with completely opposite rulings. I contacted both the state USA uic and the state NFHS rules interpreter to ask to have the play kicked up the chain to national for rulings. Both responded with their rulings, which by the way were completely opposite of each other, but as yet I have seen nothing about the play being sent on to national for a ruling.
I seem to remember a few years ago there was an option on the USA rules and clarifications page where you could submit questions for possible review in future editions, but when I looked recently there no longer appears to be that option.
I seem to remember a few years ago there was an option on the USA rules and clarifications page where you could submit questions for possible review in future editions, but when I looked recently there no longer appears to be that option.
Last edited: