Batting averages

[tmpnick16]

Here's a scenario for you...

3 for 4: 3 singles, 2 runs.

2 for 3: 2 HRs, 2 runs, 2 RBIs.

Who's more productive? A simple head to head would say the latter is more productive. You aren't guaranteed to score if you have a single, nor are you guaranteed to get an RBI from your hit, which is why I didn't give the 1st hitter 3 runs.

If this guy hits 3 singles and nobody scores on his hits... Someone else is at fault.
And I would NOT call 2 solos "productive" unless one tied the game in the last inning. Or maybe it's a 3-4 game and we really need a run bc no one else is putting it together.

 

[tmpnick16]

Where do you get that I'm hitting solo shots and 2 run HRs? Of my 10 out of the park HRs this year, so far only 5 of them have been solo or 2 run shots, and that's only cuz the rest of my team does not necessarily hit well. I also have 12 doubles and 2 triples.

Don't be a hater cuz u got no power.

Considering I'm the only one on any of my team with multiple HRs and the ability to hit them fairly at will, I think I will hit them when I can.

Perhaps you're calculating it incorrectly. If you have a .625avg.... You get 1000 ABs.... All singles give you a SLG of .625 ... All doubles give you SLG of 1.250 ... All HRs give you SLG of 2.500

 

[SMAC]

I think it's safe to say that Icky3 took the short bus to school.

 

[Cubslover]

Way too much work and thought in this thread.

 

[CPhoenixM]

I think the main point being missed here is that it's important to have high OBP guys AND high slugging guys. Take the team that has all .700 hitters and then plug in some sluggers every 3 or 4 batters and the run production most likely becomes massive.

 

[71bama17]

I think the main point being missed here is that it's important to have high OBP guys AND high slugging guys. Take the team that has all .700 hitters and then plug in some sluggers every 3 or 4 batters and the run production most likely becomes massive.

Agreed, Talked about this with boys at fastball last night, Team of singles hitters will generally have 2 and possibly 3 guys on base in an innings for a "power" hitter, where a doubles team will have 1 possibly 2 guys

 

[lcky3]

Let me carry this scenario to a more concrete and realistic conclusion. I will address why Fred could be right, but when reality is applied, he is wrong. In an average "perfect" game with no sacrifices and a perfect defense on each team, runners aren't able to advance more than one base for the singles team, and 2 bases for the doubles team, teams get all their hits in a row in each inning, then 3 outs:

Doubles team will have 31.5 hits, rounding to 32 because I have a sunny outlook on life. That averages to 4.5 hits an inning, which will guarantee 3 runs per inning, and I'm going to add 3 runs to the total because I am going to string the .5 hits together to score runs and I'm rounding up to 4 hits. Yeah, I know, now my team is batting .615. Big whoopity do.

Doubles team will score 24 runs total, stranding 7 runners.

Singles team will get 7 hits per inning, scoring 4 because it takes 4 hits to score the first run. (My perfect defense will get the out at home every time, even if it's in the air there are no sacrifices)

Singles team will score 28 runs.

Seems like singles team wins every time, right? I mean, really, you could technically string all the hits together in one inning for both teams, and the score would like 46-16 for the singles team, you could just strike out the rest of the game, and we can go drink beer after the 3rd inning.

But we don't live in this little fantasy Fred world, do we? This assumes no HRs can be hit. Fred wants to assume some DBOs, which do not matter in this scenario because sacrifices aren't happening, so a DBO means nothing. Sacrifices are subjective to what kind of out is being made, so I will not include them in the discussion for simplicity's sake, but I will talk about them later cuz SOMEBODY will surely ***** about it. Errors are also not being made because the defense is perfect, so they have no bearing either.

Even in this "perfect" scenario, the singles team only outscored the doubles team by 4 runs over 7 innings, but took 18 more ABs to do it. Gets the job done, but hardly efficient.

Let's add some reality:

Since the only people on SBF are uber-competitive, HR-hitting superjocks, let's add some slugging percentage to this equation. I've severely limited my power-hitting team by limiting them to doubles because I want them to get down on the level with the little people as close as possible. Now, I'm not being a nice guy anymore. Since we're playing the only thing that matters, competitive tourneys, let's give the power team 4 HRs. And because I'm not being nice anymore, they are all two-run shots at the end of my string of hits. I just added 4 more runs and took away 4 guys being LOB.

Now the score is: Doubles 28, Singles 28. OH NO!! We have a tie game, WTF!!! Make it a 6 HR or 10 HR limit for you SBF gods of the diamond, and singles team loses every time.

But wait, there's more!!

Since we're playing perfect defense with no errors, if you want to give my team all DBOs after the HR limit cuz we're douchebags and like to show you up, go right ahead, those DBOs still don't matter. In reality, no team is going to get all their hits in a row. my perfect defense will turn at least one DP each inning. Of course, we are going to get the lead runners at home and 3rd in the DP cuz we're perfect, although that really doesn't matter. That reduces the singles team score by 1 run for every DP that I turn, because the singles team now has to get 2 more hits to generate the next run they score. We're being nice to the singles guys, so we only turn a DP every other inning. You've now reduced the singles team score by at least 3 runs.

Sound unrealistic? I've got a perfect defense that can choose whatever forceout they want, which is a hell of a lot easier than trying to throw someone out for a double play.

Of course I'm being intelligently facetious here. No defense is perfect, HOWEVER, the statistical probability of turning a DP is phenomenally higher when you have 3 forceouts to choose from instead of none. I'll go you one further. DBOs over the fence would actually be helpful in this situation because if ALL of my outs are DBOs, I have effectively eliminated the singles team chance to turn a DP and reduce my team's scoring changes.

Final score is Doubles 28, Singles 25

 

[lcky3]

I think the main point being missed here is that it's important to have high OBP guys AND high slugging guys. Take the team that has all .700 hitters and then plug in some sluggers every 3 or 4 batters and the run production most likely becomes massive.

I seemed to have made this point clear early on.

Everyone wants to hit .800 with a 3.000 slugging percentage, but not all of us will spend the hours it takes to do this cuz we're not getting paid sponsorship like the Rusty Bumgardners and Brett Helmers of this world.

 

[thesteve]

The only problem I have with "adding in reality" is that the premise itself isn't based in reality. I've never seen a "singles teams" or a "doubles, unless they're hitting a HR" team. There's all kinds of little twists that can be added in here and there to make one team "better" than the other.

 

[Daniel Dumile]

Let me carry this scenario to a more concrete and realistic conclusion. I will address why Fred could be right, but when reality is applied, he is wrong. In an average "perfect" game with no sacrifices and a perfect defense on each team, runners aren't able to advance more than one base for the singles team, and 2 bases for the doubles team, teams get all their hits in a row in each inning, then 3 outs:

Doubles team will have 31.5 hits, rounding to 32 because I have a sunny outlook on life. That averages to 4.5 hits an inning, which will guarantee 3 runs per inning, and I'm going to add 3 runs to the total because I am going to string the .5 hits together to score runs and I'm rounding up to 4 hits. Yeah, I know, now my team is batting .615. Big whoopity do.

Doubles team will score 24 runs total, stranding 7 runners.

Singles team will get 7 hits per inning, scoring 4 because it takes 4 hits to score the first run. (My perfect defense will get the out at home every time, even if it's in the air there are no sacrifices)

Singles team will score 28 runs.

Seems like singles team wins every time, right? I mean, really, you could technically string all the hits together in one inning for both teams, and the score would like 46-16 for the singles team, you could just strike out the rest of the game, and we can go drink beer after the 3rd inning.

But we don't live in this little fantasy Fred world, do we? This assumes no HRs can be hit. Fred wants to assume some DBOs, which do not matter in this scenario because sacrifices aren't happening, so a DBO means nothing. Sacrifices are subjective to what kind of out is being made, so I will not include them in the discussion for simplicity's sake, but I will talk about them later cuz SOMEBODY will surely ***** about it. Errors are also not being made because the defense is perfect, so they have no bearing either.

Even in this "perfect" scenario, the singles team only outscored the doubles team by 4 runs over 7 innings, but took 18 more ABs to do it. Gets the job done, but hardly efficient.

Let's add some reality:

Since the only people on SBF are uber-competitive, HR-hitting superjocks, let's add some slugging percentage to this equation. I've severely limited my power-hitting team by limiting them to doubles because I want them to get down on the level with the little people as close as possible. Now, I'm not being a nice guy anymore. Since we're playing the only thing that matters, competitive tourneys, let's give the power team 4 HRs. And because I'm not being nice anymore, they are all two-run shots at the end of my string of hits. I just added 4 more runs and took away 4 guys being LOB.

Now the score is: Doubles 28, Singles 28. OH NO!! We have a tie game, WTF!!! Make it a 6 HR or 10 HR limit for you SBF gods of the diamond, and singles team loses every time.

But wait, there's more!!

Since we're playing perfect defense with no errors, if you want to give my team all DBOs after the HR limit cuz we're douchebags and like to show you up, go right ahead, those DBOs still don't matter. In reality, no team is going to get all their hits in a row. my perfect defense will turn at least one DP each inning. Of course, we are going to get the lead runners at home and 3rd in the DP cuz we're perfect, although that really doesn't matter. That reduces the singles team score by 1 run for every DP that I turn, because the singles team now has to get 2 more hits to generate the next run they score. We're being nice to the singles guys, so we only turn a DP every other inning. You've now reduced the singles team score by at least 3 runs.

Sound unrealistic? I've got a perfect defense that can choose whatever forceout they want, which is a hell of a lot easier than trying to throw someone out for a double play.

Of course I'm being intelligently facetious here. No defense is perfect, HOWEVER, the statistical probability of turning a DP is phenomenally higher when you have 3 forceouts to choose from instead of none. I'll go you one further. DBOs over the fence would actually be helpful in this situation because if ALL of my outs are DBOs, I have effectively eliminated the singles team chance to turn a DP and reduce my team's scoring changes.

Final score is Doubles 28, Singles 25

 

[lcky3]

Agreed, Talked about this with boys at fastball last night, Team of singles hitters will generally have 2 and possibly 3 guys on base in an innings for a "power" hitter, where a doubles team will have 1 possibly 2 guys

The only thing you're missing in this example is that by hitting doubles, you've already scored 2 runs with one less batter, whereas with the singles, you may have 1 or even no runs with no guarantee that the power hitter will come through.

I would take actual runs scored over the probability that a run will score any day of the week.

 

[lcky3]

The only problem I have with "adding in reality" is that the premise itself isn't based in reality. I've never seen a "singles teams" or a "doubles, unless they're hitting a HR" team. There's all kinds of little twists that can be added in here and there to make one team "better" than the other.

Yah, this comparison is more difficult to quantify than what meets the eye, which is why I spread the hits evenly over the 7 innings, to keep it more realistic.

You can always say "what if" and have a thousand things go wrong. I just use this illustration to show the more extreme end of a flawed reasoning doesn't result in some great run disparity. In fact, the more reality you inject into the argument, the less traction it has. Lotta things look good in theory.

I mean, how ridiculous is getting 49 singles in a row? Or 32 extra-base hits for that matter?

 

[thesteve]

Yah, this comparison is more difficult to quantify than what meets the eye, which is why I spread the hits evenly over the 7 innings, to keep it more realistic.

You can always say "what if" and have a thousand things go wrong. I just use this illustration to show the more extreme end of a flawed reasoning doesn't result in some great run disparity. In fact, the more reality you inject into the argument, the less traction it has. Lotta things look good in theory.

I mean, how ridiculous is getting 49 singles in a row? Or 32 extra-base hits for that matter?

You mean you've never had a season where you only hit doubles?

In all seriousness, in one of my leagues I calculated my doubles and HR rates as both a function of overall BA (i.e. how often do I hit a double) and as a percentage of BA (when I get a hit, how often is in a double). The numbers were interesting, and would've been moreso had I also tracked triples.

 

[lcky3]

You mean you've never had a season where you only hit doubles?

In all seriousness, in one of my leagues I calculated my doubles and HR rates as both a function of overall BA (i.e. how often do I hit a double) and as a percentage of BA (when I get a hit, how often is in a double). The numbers were interesting, and would've been moreso had I also tracked triples.

What did you come up with?

 

[thesteve]

What did you come up with?

With one game to go I am batting .784 in league (this is actually all OBP). The following stats are submitted as a "real world example", because I know the competition in my league is poor, this is by no means my submission to Resmondo.

My extra base hit rate (doubles, triples and HRs together) is .540

Looking at everything else as percentages (because I think it's a little cleaner at this point), 68.9% of my hits are extra base hits. This breaks down as follows (looking at ABs first then as a function of hits)
Doubles - 27% of ABs (34.4% of hits)
Triples - 5.4% of ABs (6.9% of hits)
HRs - 21.6% of ABs (27.5% of hits)

Working backwards, I hit singles during 24% of my ABs (31% of hits).

For fun, I decided to also calculate how I hit during wins vs. losses. Right now my team is carrying a 5-8 record.

In wins I am batting .750 with an extra base clip of .625 (83.3% of hits)
In losses I am batting .809 with an extra base clip of .476 (58.8% of hits)...and this even includes a 0-2 game I had earlier this week.

My HR rate in losses is higher (23.8% of ABs vs. 18.75%), but my doubles rate is lower (23.8% of ABs vs. 31.2%).

Of course, I'm going to guess that the teams we played in the losses played better defense so I was less likely to try for or have the opportunities for extra bases. Also, I didn't keep track of RBI, but I would guess that my doubles in wins scored more runs than my doubles in losses.

 

[lcky3]

With one game to go I am batting .784 in league (this is actually all OBP). The following stats are submitted as a "real world example", because I know the competition in my league is poor, this is by no means my submission to Resmondo.

My extra base hit rate (doubles, triples and HRs together) is .540

Looking at everything else as percentages (because I think it's a little cleaner at this point), 68.9% of my hits are extra base hits. This breaks down as follows (looking at ABs first then as a function of hits)
Doubles - 27% of ABs (34.4% of hits)
Triples - 5.4% of ABs (6.9% of hits)
HRs - 21.6% of ABs (27.5% of hits)

Working backwards, I hit singles during 24% of my ABs (31% of hits).

For fun, I decided to also calculate how I hit during wins vs. losses. Right now my team is carrying a 5-8 record.

In wins I am batting .750 with an extra base clip of .625 (83.3% of hits)
In losses I am batting .809 with an extra base clip of .476 (58.8% of hits)...and this even includes a 0-2 game I had earlier this week.

My HR rate in losses is higher (23.8% of ABs vs. 18.75%), but my doubles rate is lower (23.8% of ABs vs. 31.2%).

Of course, I'm going to guess that the teams we played in the losses played better defense so I was less likely to try for or have the opportunities for extra bases. Also, I didn't keep track of RBI, but I would guess that my doubles in wins scored more runs than my doubles in losses.

LOL, I know, to SMAC, everyone is a liar or making a brag post. Can't post stats without someone rolling their eyes.

Nice stats. My goal is a .700 hitter with power, but I'm not too displeased with my current average, considering I had a bit of a slow start. Did a lot of work in the offseason, seeing the dividends at the plate.

 

[thesteve]

LOL, I know, to SMAC, everyone is a liar or making a brag post. Can't post stats without someone rolling their eyes.

Nice stats. My goal is a .700 hitter with power, but I'm not too displeased with my current average, considering I had a bit of a slow start. Did a lot of work in the offseason, seeing the dividends at the plate.

It's good to keep things in perspective, always.

Last season in this league I batted around .880. One of the teams from that season dropped out, and one of the teams got a lot better at defense. On top of that, we lost (injury) our cornerstone 1B, who is a solid all around guy and really anchors the team mentally. With him out we've got a lot of guys playing out of position on defense and just not keeping it together on offense. In my 0-fer game a couple weeks ago we started out down 14 after the top of the first and never recovered. Every AB I was swinging out of my socks just trying to get a run across instead of keeping within myself mentally and physically.

 

[ratking20]

arc ball is gay, just saying!

 

[midnight89]

On base percentage is what matters (with the understanding that walks and reached base on error count for you while sacs and fielder's choices count against you). You get 21 outs in a 7-inning game and it's your job as a batter to do what it takes to not make one.

OBP rewards all the right things -- the guy who hits .750 but takes a walk when you're trailing and need a base runner, a guy who hits the ball down and hard and forces the infielders to make tough plays, etc.

As for the numbers, that's about right for the tourney scene. Defenses are better, pitching is better, etc.

There are plenty of guys that claim to consistently hit over .700+ every tourney season....I can tell you that the ones that actually accomplish that feat are really, really good hitters.

 

[squirt]

Man I can't believe I just read through all of this BS... The only thing that I got out of this whole thing, my peepee is bigger than your peepee!!!

There sure are A LOT of egos around here...

 

[spos21ram]

Depends on what level of play and how good the competition is. Also what bats and core/comp balls also play a factor.

 

[rg02]

we count errors and FC as outs on my team, i'm sure every team does it differently

that's the way they should be scored. Errors and FC should not count as a hit. Also, it is only a Sac fly (doesnt count as an at bat, but counts as an RBI) if a runner scores on the Sac Fly. That's how we keep stats on our team....

 

[thesteve]

that's the way they should be scored. Errors and FC should not count as a hit. Also, it is only a Sac fly (doesnt count as an at bat, but counts as an RBI) if a runner scores on the Sac Fly. That's how we keep stats on our team....

By any sanction body's definition, a sac fly isn't a sac fly unless the runner scores.

 

[GShreve5]

Here's a scenario for you...

3 for 4: 3 singles, 2 runs.

2 for 3: 2 HRs, 2 runs, 2 RBIs.

Who's more productive? A simple head to head would say the latter is more productive. You aren't guaranteed to score if you have a single, nor are you guaranteed to get an RBI from your hit, which is why I didn't give the 1st hitter 3 runs.

I'd rather have the guy who hits singles than the guy who wastes solo shots like a ****head with no bat control.

 

[akern]

that's the way they should be scored. Errors and FC should not count as a hit. Also, it is only a Sac fly (doesnt count as an at bat, but counts as an RBI) if a runner scores on the Sac Fly. That's how we keep stats on our team....

...exactly...

 

[Triple7]

What is everyone's thoughts on what a good/bad/average/poor/outstanding batting average is? Here is what I generally go by:

Below .500 = for a competitive team you need an OBP% better than this but liveable if good defense is played by this person
.500 to .599 = average
.600 to .699 = very good
.700 or higher = unreal

00 to .599 = bad
.600 to .699 = average/good
.700 to .750 = very good
.750 to .825 = awesome

 

[Triple7]

By any sanction body's definition, a sac fly isn't a sac fly unless the runner scores.

There are no sac flies in softball unless it score the game winning run.

 

[Ben_Johnson41]

There are no sac flies in softball unless it score the game winning run.

This is how I feel about it as well. I don't see how people in softball don't count a sac as an AB, when the out you made definitely counts as an out for your team.

 

[Triple7]

This is how I feel about it as well. I don't see how people in softball don't count a sac as an AB, when the out you made definitely counts as an out for your team.

Exactly if you are winning games 3-2 cause of a sac fly sure.... But if you are score 18/19 a game then no way

 

[thesteve]

There are no sac flies in softball unless it score the game winning run.

This is how I feel about it as well. I don't see how people in softball don't count a sac as an AB, when the out you made definitely counts as an out for your team.

Which sanctions are you guys representatives for?