NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
In the box.
Conflicting rules
- Thread starter watsonrg
- Start date
In the box.
OK. Yours was actually clear from the beginning, although no references were given for us rookies
It seemed like ojs was getting his ruling/interpretation from another area, like when a batter steps one foot out of the box and makes contact with the ball.
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Show me anywhere in the rules which gives precedent to the "trail" foot determining the status of a player when both feet have touched the ground, one on each side of a definitive line, actual or perceived.
In all cases, batter's box, catcher's box, dead-ball line, 3' line, pitcher's circle, the rules involving a violation or determination of a position do not provide for an exception for just one foot being within the line while the other has touched the ground completely outside the boundry
NCASA Im still hoping for you to explain the below post from the other day
ureout said: ↑
NCASA....I understand what you are saying but I think the difference is that in Rule 1 it addresses a ball that hits the batter that is deep in the box and he is in foul territiory....and Rule 7 - Section 4 (A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE) is for a batter that is still in the box but in fair territory
I - When any part of the batter's person or clothing is hit with a batted ball when the batter is in the batter's box and (FP ONLY) as fewer than two strikes.
You're taking a simple definition and adding words to it that do not exist.
If they're still in the batter's box when they are hit by the batted ball, it's a foul ball. It doesn't say where the ball is, it doesn't say "if they're in the foul portion of the box." If they're in the box when they are hit, it's a foul ball. That's it.
Look, I'm not going to lead you wrong on this one. I think that what you're doing is treating Rule 1 (the definitions) as somehow being "lesser" than the rest of the rules. Years ago, I did much the same thing, giving that entire section nothing more than a cursory glance. It wasn't until I really started getting involved in rules and rule interpretations that I realized that Rule 1 carries just as much weight as any other rule in the book, including Rule 7 and Rule 8.
So believe me when I say that the definition in Rule 1 is exactly where your answer is found. Are they in the box when the ball hits them? Yes? "DEAD BALL! FOUL!"
ureout said: ↑
NCASA....I understand what you are saying but I think the difference is that in Rule 1 it addresses a ball that hits the batter that is deep in the box and he is in foul territiory....and Rule 7 - Section 4 (A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE) is for a batter that is still in the box but in fair territory
I - When any part of the batter's person or clothing is hit with a batted ball when the batter is in the batter's box and (FP ONLY) as fewer than two strikes.
You're taking a simple definition and adding words to it that do not exist.
If they're still in the batter's box when they are hit by the batted ball, it's a foul ball. It doesn't say where the ball is, it doesn't say "if they're in the foul portion of the box." If they're in the box when they are hit, it's a foul ball. That's it.
Look, I'm not going to lead you wrong on this one. I think that what you're doing is treating Rule 1 (the definitions) as somehow being "lesser" than the rest of the rules. Years ago, I did much the same thing, giving that entire section nothing more than a cursory glance. It wasn't until I really started getting involved in rules and rule interpretations that I realized that Rule 1 carries just as much weight as any other rule in the book, including Rule 7 and Rule 8.
So believe me when I say that the definition in Rule 1 is exactly where your answer is found. Are they in the box when the ball hits them? Yes? "DEAD BALL! FOUL!"
sorry it didn't post ....here it is
NCASA.... both rules are below why have 1 rule say foul ball and the other say a strike is called......and how can you make a foul ball call when in the OP the umpire said the ball was in FAIR TERRITORY when it made contact with the batter....do you just regard that? I would call DEAD BALL and a strike when it made contact with the batter in the box and in FAR TERRITORY..... please explain how you can get a foul ball call??? and if you are correct on the foul ball then explaing the purpose of the other rule??
FOUL BALL: A batted ball that:
F. Touches the batter or the bat in the batter’s hand(s) a second time while the
batter is within the batter’s box
RULE 7 - BATTING
Section 4. A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE.
I. When any part of the batter’s person or clothing is hit with a batted ball while
the batter is in the batter’s box and (FP) has fewer than two strikes
so the ball being in fair territory when it hit the batter has no bearing? .....do you have some case book or POE
RustyShakleford
Well-Known Member
what bearing would it have? the rule states if the batter is still in the batter's box when they contact the ball, it's a foul ball. the rule makes no mention of it being in fair territory or not.
the question has been....why are there 2 different rules for a batter making contact with a batted ball.....one says its a foul ball the other rule says its a called strike.....I haven't seen anywhere where a umpire can call a foul ball when its in fair territory....read the OP
FOUL BALL: A batted ball that:
F. Touches the batter or the bat in the batter’s hand(s) a second time while the
batter is within the batter’s box
RULE 7 - BATTING
Section 4. A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE.
I. When any part of the batter’s person or clothing is hit with a batted ball while
the batter is in the batter’s box and (FP) has fewer than two strikes
RustyShakleford
Well-Known Member
you can call it a foul ball because the batter was still in the batter's box when the ball is contacted by the batter. just because part of the batter's box is in fair territory doesn't matter.
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
No.
NCASA....ok thx... Im not busting your balls here....but could you please tell me why there are 2 different rules on a batter making contact with a batted ball and since you say being fair or foul has no bearing when would this rule be called??
RULE 7 - BATTING
Section 4. A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE.
I. When any part of the batter’s person or clothing is hit with a batted ball while
the batter is in the batter’s box and (FP) has fewer than two strikes
RustyShakleford
Well-Known Member
there are not 2 different rules for 1 situation. stop saying that
you are confusing 2 different rules thinking they apply to the same thing. 1 applies to it being a fair ball and 1 applies to a foul ball. since the batter contacts the ball in the batter's box it is a foul ball and only 1 rule applies.
you are confusing 2 different rules thinking they apply to the same thing. 1 applies to it being a fair ball and 1 applies to a foul ball. since the batter contacts the ball in the batter's box it is a foul ball and only 1 rule applies.
hitless45
Addicted to Softballfans
^^^ ding ding ding^^^ pretty simple!
since NCASA didn't answer then you tell me.....
there are definitey 2 rules is the ASA rule book....you say that FOUL BALL covers anytime a batter makes contact with a ball and is within the batters box....
FOUL BALL: A batted ball that:
F. Touches the batter or the bat in the batter’s hand(s) a second time while the
batter is within the batter’s box
Then give me a scenario when an umpire would use RULE 7 - BATING Section 4. A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE.
I. When any part of the batter’s person or clothing is hit with a batted ball while
the batter is in the batter’s box and (FP) has fewer than two strikes
the difference in the rules besides one being called a foul ball and the other a strike is in the wording of the rule.....FOUL BALL says the batter is within the batter’s box which to me means that both feet are totally inside the box .....
where as RULE 7 - BATING says while the batter is in the batter’s box .... which to me means he has at least 1 foot still in the box and 1 foot in FAIR TERRITORY and out of the box heading toward 1st base.... as in what the OP stated
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
I've been answering your question. Repeatedly. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you.
In the Slow Pitch game, a foul ball IS a strike. In the fast pitch game, a foul ball is a strike UNLESS the batter already has two strikes.
What am I missing about your question that makes you think I've not answered it?
In the Slow Pitch game, a foul ball IS a strike. In the fast pitch game, a foul ball is a strike UNLESS the batter already has two strikes.
What am I missing about your question that makes you think I've not answered it?
RustyShakleford
Well-Known Member
oh your god, this is getting stupid
above i posted what I thought was the difference were between the 2 rules ....for the 3rd time if this rule has a different meaning then give me a scenario when an umpire would use RULE 7 - BATING Section 4. A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE.
I. When any part of the batter’s person or clothing is hit with a batted ball while
the batter is in the batter’s box and (FP) has fewer than two strikes
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Probably the same thing that is keeping people from answering the questions I posed, it doesn't coincide with their agenda
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
No, I get the confusion that he's having. Why did they feel the need to address it so many times when it's already defined in Rule 1, then its effect given in 7-4-F and G? What makes it so different?
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
And STILL waiting for those answers. But do not expect them since they do not fit the ruling it seems everyone wants to see
Sully
Wanna buy jerseys/rings?
If the count is one and one and the batter hits a foul ball what's the count? Conversely, if the count is one and one and a strike is called, what's the count?
What is a Foul Ball? I wish the rule book had a definition.
FOUL BALL: A batted ball that: F. Touches the batter or the bat in the batter’s hand(s) a second time while the batter is within the batter’s box.
Oh it does. So if a foul ball that hit's the batter in the batter's box occurs, what should the umpire call? Oh, Rule 7 says call it a strike.
Rule 7 - Section 4 (A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE)
I - When any part of the batter's person or clothing is hit with a batted ball when the batter is in the batter's box and (FP ONLY) as fewer than two strikes.
Rule 1 defines an Infield Fly.
Rule 8 tells you on an Infield Fly the batter is out and runners may advance at their own risk.
Rule 1 defines terms. Rules 7 (and 8 in the above case) explain what the umpire is supposed to do when that term happens in a game.
irishmafia
Addicted to Softballfans
Rule 1 also defines a batter-runner.
LIKEUCM
Member
I believe Irish is right when defining when a batter/runner is out of the box. If one or both feet are completely out of the box, or if a batter has exited the box during the pitch and reentered the box they are considered out of the box . I don't see how that definition can change in this circumstance.
Still a great thread, IMO
I'd still like to 100% understand how and where in/out of the box is defined and if it has different definitions for different scenarios.
NCASA says that one foot out is considered still "in", but batters are often called "out/out of the box" when they step one foot out and hit a ball.
I'd still like to 100% understand how and where in/out of the box is defined and if it has different definitions for different scenarios.
NCASA says that one foot out is considered still "in", but batters are often called "out/out of the box" when they step one foot out and hit a ball.
NCASAUmp
Un-Retired
And I'll admit I may be mistaken on that. I'll defer to Irish's opinion on the matter and say that he's probably right, while reserving the right to ask my UICs for clarification. I'm sure he's right, but I always enjoy asking around.
I think where I'm coming from with that was the way it was explained to me. "When in doubt (regarding in/out of the box), call it foul."
I think where I'm coming from with that was the way it was explained to me. "When in doubt (regarding in/out of the box), call it foul."