Conflicting rules

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watsonrg

New Member
In an ASA slow pitch co-ed game, the batter topped the ball. It bounced up, and in fair territory the batter (runner) took one step forward and made contact with the ball. There is no drawn batter's box.

I was behind the plate and ruled the batter runner out and the ball dead for interference.

  1. Rule 8 Sec. 1 (A) The batter becomes a batter runner as soon as the batter legally hits a fair ball.
  2. Rule 8 Sec. 2 (F) 4 The batter runner is out (F) when the batter runner interferes (4) by making contact with a fair batted ball before reaching first base.
My partner on the bases disagreed. He cited:

Rule 7 - Section 4 (A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE)
H - When any part of the batter's person or clothing is hit with a batted ball when the batter is in the batter's box and (FP ONLY) as fewer than two strikes.

Effect Section 4 E-K: The ball is dead and each runner must return to his base without liability to be put out.

Who is right, and does ASA have anywhere to submit questions such as this for an official ruling?

Thanks Guys
 
dttruax

dttruax

Addicted to Softballfans
RustyShakleford said:
Depends on if he was in the batter's box or not when he made contact
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^^This. And just because the lines weren't there, doesn't mean the box isn't there. It would be your judgement as the home plate umpire as to whether the batter was still "in the box".
 
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watsonrg

New Member
As I wrote, there is no drawn batter's box. Presumably if there had been, after one step one foot would have remained inside the box.

There is also the issue of batter vs batter runner. Rule 7 (above) refers to the batter. Once the ball is hit fair he becomes the batter runner and rule 8 should apply.

That's why I ask if ASA has an authority to submit this question since an argument can be made to support both calls.
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
I agree. If the batter still has a foot in the box, it's a foul ball.

Take a step back and read the definition of a foul ball in Rule 1. You'll find your answer there.
 
LIKEUCM

LIKEUCM

Member
It seems that based on your initial question you feel that due to the fact that the batters box is not drawn that your ability to call this a foul ball is compromised. I assure you, it is not. The batters box is 6" from home plate, it is 3 feet wide and 7 feet long. It extends into fair territory. In fact, if no box is drawn, most umpires will give the benefit of the doubt to the batter/runner when making a decision such as the one you faced. Unless it is very clear that the runner is out of the box, make the foul call. In the local league games, many umpires do not have chalked batters boxes, we have to know the deminisions of the box, and to use good judgement when making calls relative to the batter being in/out of the box. Your local ASA Umpire-in-Chief, or State Umpire-in-Chief should be contacted if you have any questions regarding any confusion regarding the proper application of ASA Rules. The ASA/USA Softball Web site should have contact information for each state.
 
B

baldgriff

Lead Oompah Loompah....
These are not conflicting rules - they are dependent on the game you are playing. The rule set you relied on to make your ruling is the slowpitch rule. Rule 7 has the qualifier (FP ONLY), meaning Fast Pitch Only. As to how you applied the rule, is your judgement but there is no actual rules conflict.
 
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watsonrg

New Member
Re-read the original post. The batter had hit the ball into fair territory, becoming the batter runner. That is why I ruled interference.
 
RustyShakleford

RustyShakleford

Well-Known Member
watsonrg said:
As I wrote, there is no drawn batter's box. Presumably if there had been, after one step one foot would have remained inside the box.

There is also the issue of batter vs batter runner. Rule 7 (above) refers to the batter. Once the ball is hit fair he becomes the batter runner and rule 8 should apply.

That's why I ask if ASA has an authority to submit this question since an argument can be made to support both calls.
Click to expand...
if you called interference, you are wrong
 
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I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
RustyShakleford said:
if you called interference, you are wrong
Click to expand...

I disagree. Read the definition of a batter-runner. There is nothing in the OP to demand an INT call. I agree that if the step taken that made contact with the ball and was still in the box, technically, it is a foul ball. However, that was not, nor should it be the rule as interpreted. The purpose of the rule was meant to protect a player that hits the ball sharply down into themselves or so hard it bounces back up and hits them or the bat so quickly there was no time to react. It was not meant to relieve the responsibility of a BR of avoiding a batted ball when leaving the batter's box.
 
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ureout

The Veteran
the batter must be in the box at the start of the pitch...he must have still been in the box when he made contact with the ball because he was not called out for being out of the box....and in the OP it said he took "1step forward" and made contact with the ball....I dont see how a batter who was in the box on contact can be "totally out of the box" when only taking 1 step forward......since he was in fair territory I have a dead ball/strike
 
RustyShakleford

RustyShakleford

Well-Known Member
irishmafia said:
I disagree. Read the definition of a batter-runner. There is nothing in the OP to demand an INT call. I agree that if the step taken that made contact with the ball and was still in the box, technically, it is a foul ball. However, that was not, nor should it be the rule as interpreted. The purpose of the rule was meant to protect a player that hits the ball sharply down into themselves or so hard it bounces back up and hits them or the bat so quickly there was no time to react. It was not meant to relieve the responsibility of a BR of avoiding a batted ball when leaving the batter's box.
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if it's technically the right call, then it's the right call
 
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ureout

The Veteran
irishmafia said:
I disagree. Read the definition of a batter-runner. There is nothing in the OP to demand an INT call. I agree that if the step taken that made contact with the ball and was still in the box, technically, it is a foul ball. However, that was not, nor should it be the rule as interpreted. The purpose of the rule was meant to protect a player that hits the ball sharply down into themselves or so hard it bounces back up and hits them or the bat so quickly there was no time to react. It was not meant to relieve the responsibility of a BR of avoiding a batted ball when leaving the batter's box.
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irish.....no where in the rule does it say that the ball must be sharply hit ...where does it tell how the rule should be interpreted....it can be any mis-hit ball that spins backwards and makes contact with the B/R....
 
J

joncon

Addicted to Softballfans
NCASAUmp said:
Yes, there is. If it hits their foot, it's a foul ball. The batter doesn't become a batter-runner until s/he hits a fair ball.
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A person could have one foot still in the box and still get hit on the other foot by a ball in fair territory (like right in front of or on the plate)

Great question/scenario. Another good reason not to ump :)
 
NCASAUmp

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
ureout said:
irish.....no where in the rule does it say that the ball must be sharply hit ...where does it tell how the rule should be interpreted....it can be any mis-hit ball that spins backwards and makes contact with the B/R....
Click to expand...

Again, please read the definition of "foul ball." There is your answer. It's pretty simple.
 
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ureout

The Veteran
NCASAUmp said:
Again, please read the definition of "foul ball." There is your answer. It's pretty simple.
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NCASA....why would I want to read the definition of FOUL BALL read OP it was a FAIR BALL ... In an ASA slow pitch co-ed game, the batter topped the ball. It bounced up, and in fair territory the batter (runner) took one step forward and made contact with the ball. There is no drawn batter's box.
 
B

Banero

Addicted to Softballfans
I think the best way to help interpret this would be "Did the ball hit the batter-runner, or did the batter-runner hit the ball?"
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
RustyShakleford said:
if it's technically the right call, then it's the right call
Click to expand...

ureout said:
irish.....no where in the rule does it say that the ball must be sharply hit ...where does it tell how the rule should be interpreted....it can be any mis-hit ball that spins backwards and makes contact with the B/R....
Click to expand...

Stop trying to read what isn't there. Where did I say it was in the rule? And what is a mis-hit?

I know what the rule states and how it is applied. So lets look at the rule. By rule (8.1.A), a player who has hit a far ball is immediately a batter-runner. Rule 8.2.F.4 specifically states the BR is out upon making contact with a batted ball in fair territory before reaching first base. There are no exceptions, no relief provided by the location of the player. The book specifically and technically rules the batter-runner out.
 
RustyShakleford

RustyShakleford

Well-Known Member
as soon as they touch the ball while still in the batter's box, it is a foul ball. that overrides it being a fair ball and they are no longer a batter-runner
 
RustyShakleford

RustyShakleford

Well-Known Member
Rule 7 - Section 4 (A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE)
H - When any part of the batter's person or clothing is hit with a batted ball when the batter is in the batter's box and (FP ONLY) as fewer than two strikes.

Effect Section 4 E-K: The ball is dead and each runner must return to his base without liability to be put out.
 
RustyShakleford

RustyShakleford

Well-Known Member
or:

FOUL BALL: A batted ball that:
A. Settles or is touched (not caught) on or over foul territory between home and
first base or between home and third base.
B. Bounds or rolls past first or third base on or over foul territory.
C. While over foul territory, touches the person, attached or detached equipment
or clothing of a player or an umpire, or any object foreign to the natural
ground.
D. While over foul territory, a runner interferes with a defensive player attempting
to field a batted ball.
E. First hits the ground over foul territory beyond first or third base.
F. Touches the batter or the bat in the batter’s hand(s) a second time while the
batter is within the batter’s box.
G. Goes directly from the bat to any part of the catcher’s body or equipment
and is caught by another fielder.
H. Hits the pitcher’s plate and rolls untouched to foul territory before reaching
first or third base.
 
I

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
RustyShakleford said:
Rule 7 - Section 4 (A STRIKE IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE)
H - When any part of the batter's person or clothing is hit with a batted ball when the batter is in the batter's box and (FP ONLY) as fewer than two strikes.

Effect Section 4 E-K: The ball is dead and each runner must return to his base without liability to be put out.
Click to expand...

You are still talking about a batter. The rule is specific that this was a BR.
 
O

ojs43

Member
irishmafia said:
Stop trying to read what isn't there. Where did I say it was in the rule? And what is a mis-hit?

I know what the rule states and how it is applied. So lets look at the rule. By rule (8.1.A), a player who has hit a far ball is immediately a batter-runner. Rule 8.2.F.4 specifically states the BR is out upon making contact with a batted ball in fair territory before reaching first base. There are no exceptions, no relief provided by the location of the player. The book specifically and technically rules the batter-runner out.
Click to expand...

To add more confusion to this, the definition of a fair ball is not fair until (section C) it touches a person, equipment, or clothing of a player or umpire. So the batter cannot be a BR until they touch the ball (or one of the 7 other ways to determine a fair ball, listed below.)

A. settles or touch on fair territory between home and first base, or between home and third base; or
B. is on or over fair territory when bounding past first or third base; or
C. While on or over fair territory, touches a person, equipment, or clothing of a player or umpire
D. While in fair territory, an offensive player interferes....
E. touches first, second, or third base; or
F. lands for the first time in fair territory in the outfield.
G. passes out of the playing field in flight while over fair territory,
H. Hits the foul pole
 
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