ASA Fake tag + tossing players

[BigSam]

Runner on 2B, ball hit to deep(ish) RC. Pitcher on the mound waiting for a throw as runner rounds 3rd. He sees that there wont be a play, so the pitcher slaps his glove and runs hard at the runner. Runner mostly ignores this and scores. Ball is at the SS when this happens, btw.

I'm going to hold off on what I called. Curious what call you'd have made, if any.

 

[BretMan]

If the pitcher never actually attempted to tag the runner (that is, simulate the same touching motion as a real tag, only without the ball) then you don't have a fake tag.

 

[NCASAUmp]

If the pitcher never actually attempted to tag the runner (that is, simulate the same touching motion as a real tag, only without the ball) then you don't have a fake tag.

Yes, but if the runner reacted to the pitcher in a way that indicated he thought a play was imminent, I wouldn't have a fake tag, but I'd still have obstruction.

 

[AH23]

And, away we go... I'm with NCASAUmp on this, I've also been told I'm wrong.........I wish they'd cover this BS in the rule supplement

 

[BigSam]

That's interesting. He didn't actually "make" the fake tag... stopping short of actually swiping at the runner. But the intent of the tag was there, and the runner altered his stride because of it. He didn't slide, and that is sort of the red line for me.

My call was no call. Runner was safe and didn't need an OBS call, with the ball being nowhere near him. Doesn't mean I shouldn't have signaled it though. That's something I'll need to remember. After the batter-runner stopped I called time and then gave an (angry) warning to the pitcher for the fake tag. If the runner had slid because of that fake tag I'd have tossed him on the spot.

I really have no patience for fake tags. Softball has plenty of injuries without extra juvenile BS added. I consider it one of the worst cases of unsportsmanlike.

 

[RustyShakleford]

Nothing wrong with giving a warning

 

[herts9]

I'd have it as a no-call as well. It's half douche, half gamesmanship.

Now, if the fake tag caused a player to slide where he otherwise wouldn't need to, we got problems. Safety concern, watch from the parking lot.

 

[NCASAUmp]

That's interesting. He didn't actually "make" the fake tag... stopping short of actually swiping at the runner. But the intent of the tag was there, and the runner altered his stride because of it. He didn't slide, and that is sort of the red line for me.

My call was no call. Runner was safe and didn't need an OBS call, with the ball being nowhere near him. Doesn't mean I shouldn't have signaled it though. That's something I'll need to remember. After the batter-runner stopped I called time and then gave an (angry) warning to the pitcher for the fake tag. If the runner had slid because of that fake tag I'd have tossed him on the spot.

I really have no patience for fake tags. Softball has plenty of injuries without extra juvenile BS added. I consider it one of the worst cases of unsportsmanlike.

When the runner alters his stride, that is obstruction. It should still be called so that it can be brought to the defense's attention.

 

[AH23]

I think we had this same discussion a year or two ago on one of the umpire forums...... Irish is gonna tune you up NCASAUmp, if I remember correctly.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I think we had this same discussion a year or two ago on one of the umpire forums...... Irish is gonna tune you up NCASAUmp, if I remember correctly.

He is? But my Jeep isn't due for a tune-up for another 30k miles... Well, he's welcome to it!

 

[irishmafia]

Yes, but if the runner reacted to the pitcher in a way that indicated he thought a play was imminent, I wouldn't have a fake tag, but I'd still have obstruction.

No matter what anyone thought was or was not "imminent", unless his action physically impeded the runner, this is nothing.

 

[baldgriff]

This is not a fake tag - as it does not sound as if the pitcher actually attempted to tag the runner. I would have obstruction if the player stopped and was thrown out at either home or third. Runner is scoring either way.

 

[NCASAUmp]

No matter what anyone thought was or was not "imminent", unless his action physically impeded the runner, this is nothing.

So if the runner stuttered his steps, broke stride, deviated, slid, cowered into the fetal position, etc. because he thought a play was being made on him due to the pitcher's actions, wouldn't that be obstruction?

 

[irishmafia]

So if the runner stuttered his steps, broke stride, deviated, slid, cowered into the fetal position, etc. because he thought a play was being made on him due to the pitcher's actions, wouldn't that be obstruction?

I'll say it again, no matter what anyone thought was or was not "imminent", unless his action physically impeded the runner, this is nothing.

 

[RustyShakleford]

Can you not verbally obstruct someone?

 

[BigSam]

Curious Irish... if the runner slides, do you toss the fielder? Only if he actually made the fake tag? I can't imagine you just ignore that kind of shenanigans and say nothing.

 

[irishmafia]

Curious Irish... if the runner slides, do you toss the fielder? Only if he actually made the fake tag? I can't imagine you just ignore that kind of shenanigans and say nothing.

Never said I would ignore it. My statement was quite simple that a runner's belief is irrelevant without associated physical act by a defender that impeded the runner

 

[NCASAUmp]

Never said I would ignore it. My statement was quite simple that a runner's belief is irrelevant without associated physical act by a defender that impeded the runner

If I have a pitcher that smacks his glove to simulate the sound of the ball hitting it, and then runs towards a runner to simulate an attempted tag and causes him to break stride, that's enough for me to say that the pitcher's shenanigans impeded the runner.

 

[irishmafia]

If I have a pitcher that smacks his glove to simulate the sound of the ball hitting it, and then runs towards a runner to simulate an attempted tag and causes him to break stride, that's enough for me to say that the pitcher's shenanigans impeded the runner.

To "simulate an attempted tag"? What the hell is that? If the runner is that stupid even with a coach to see the field and offer direction, he deserves to be out. Unless that pitcher gets within a reasonable distance to actually make a possible play, you still haven't met the conditions for an OBS call.

If there is a runner on 2B who is off with contact and the ball is lined over the SS head, if the SS slaps his glove as if he caught the ball, quickly turns toward the infield and the runner stops & heads back to 2B, is that OBS?

 

[NCASAUmp]

To "simulate an attempted tag"? What the hell is that? If the runner is that stupid even with a coach to see the field and offer direction, he deserves to be out. Unless that pitcher gets within a reasonable distance to actually make a possible play, you still haven't met the conditions for an OBS call.

If there is a runner on 2B who is off with contact and the ball is lined over the SS head, if the SS slaps his glove as if he caught the ball, quickly turns toward the infield and the runner stops & heads back to 2B, is that OBS?

Maybe, maybe not. Some amount of "you had to be stupid to fall for that" applies, but at the same time, it's still a **** move aimed at causing a runner to hold up.

At what point would you consider it obstruction, Irish?

 

[irishmafia]

Maybe, maybe not. Some amount of "you had to be stupid to fall for that" applies, but at the same time, it's still a **** move aimed at causing a runner to hold up.

At what point would you consider it obstruction, Irish?

Again, when the actions of the fielder physically hinders or impedes the runner. Being stupid, not appropriately coach, not observant or just being fooled is not a condition of obstruction.

 

[dttruax]

If I have a pitcher that smacks his glove to simulate the sound of the ball hitting it, and then runs towards a runner to simulate an attempted tag and causes him to break stride, that's enough for me to say that the pitcher's shenanigans impeded the runner.

 

[TWmccoy]

As an ump I see fake tags periodically. Most often its guys who are very new to softball doing it. I give a stern warning if I see it. These guys literally have no clue that fake tags aren't allowed.

 

[LIKEUCM]

What you have here is the action of a defensive player that impeeds the progess of a runner. If the runner was not affected by this....no call. If the runners progress was impacted, then extend your left arm to signal obstruction and protect the runner to the base they would have reached had this action had not taken place. A fake tag is a form of obstruction. Obstruction does not require a simulated move of a glove tagging a runner. I often see a 2nd or 3rd baseman act as if they are receiving a thown ball and slapping their glove to fake out a runner (when the ball is being picked up on the warning track). If you see the advance of the runner is altered by this action, you have obstrution. Call it.

 

[irishmafia]

As an ump I see fake tags periodically. Most often its guys who are very new to softball doing it. I give a stern warning if I see it. These guys literally have no clue that fake tags aren't allowed.

Which is why no one on a SP team should ever be referred to as "coach" simply because they do not.

 

[irishmafia]

What you have here is the action of a defensive player that impeeds the progess of a runner. If the runner was not affected by this....no call. If the runners progress was impacted, then extend your left arm to signal obstruction and protect the runner to the base they would have reached had this action had not taken place. A fake tag is a form of obstruction. Obstruction does not require a simulated move of a glove tagging a runner. I often see a 2nd or 3rd baseman act as if they are receiving a thown ball and slapping their glove to fake out a runner (when the ball is being picked up on the warning track). If you see the advance of the runner is altered by this action, you have obstrution. Call it.

Couldn't disagree more. Someone pounding their glove as if to receive the ball is nothing. If a runner hesitates, you have nothing but a stupid runner and inept coach.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Couldn't disagree more. Someone pounding their glove as if to receive the ball is nothing. If a runner hesitates, you have nothing but a stupid runner and inept coach.

If all they're doing is pounding their glove, you're right, that's nothing. If they pound their glove and run AT the runner, looking like they're going to tag him, then that's obstruction, every single time.

What's the difference between that and a fake tag? Deception is certainly a part of the game, sure, but this is not how the game's played.

 

[NCASAUmp]

 

[baldgriff]

If I recall correctly the fake tag rule was implemented to actually stop people from simulating a "TAG" without having the ball. Slapping the glove is not simulating a tag. Its not even in my mind the same thing.

A fake tag in my mind is actually acting as if you have the ball and applying a tag to the player - thus causing them to slide or try to avoid your tag. The rule was implemented in order to prevent runners getting hurt.

That said - slapping the glove may be construed as obstruction.

 

[JabNblue]

Runner on 2B, ball hit to deep(ish) RC. Pitcher on the mound waiting for a throw as runner rounds 3rd. He sees that there wont be a play, so the pitcher slaps his glove and runs hard at the runner. Runner mostly ignores this and scores. Ball is at the SS when this happens, btw.

I'm going to hold off on what I called. Curious what call you'd have made, if any.

Well when you say "mostly" ignored him. The player did score so this would have been at time of play a delayed dead ball action. Left arm out in case in did impede the runner. If it had like the runner got caught or out then the base in which in judgement would have been awared