ASA Heating a bat.

[MJL 00]

again you're retarded

Actually have a handi cap sister you fing douche so watch your fing mouth learn some manner a$$ munch...

 

[MJL 00]

You're grasping at straws people and splitting hairs for sake of arguing something. Forget the sun, the moon, and the natural existence of man. It's black and white like the rule book says. Did the players heat the bat? Did they cool the balls? Did they shave it? Every rule is written for players.

Easy, did the player(s) heat the bats? ... yes, .... fine... they are now to be removed from the game. That's it.

Why do people have to try and rationalize and debate stuff so much.

Good point...

 

[BretMan]

After talking with a friend that is an engineer and also plays ball, he states heating a bat is not, like rolling or shaving, altering it enough or any to make it a better bat, only warming the material would make it more elastic so that would not break down as easy as if its cold increasing durability.

As an umpire who also happens to be an engineer, I wouldn't go around making definitive statements like that. Did he personally perform the bat heating test, or does he have data from someone who did? If not, then he's not presenting scientific fact, but rather personal theory or opinion.

It's been a few years now, but back awhile ago heating bats was given the okay. The reasoning was about the same as your engineer friend's. But once real world testing was performed, it was found that heating bats could affect the performance. So, they banned heating again.

Before someone screams, "Show me the data", it's not availabale to the general public. The testing was performed by the same lab that does all of ASA's bat testing.

 

[MJL 00]

As an umpire who also happens to be an engineer, I wouldn't go around making definitive statements like that. Did he personally perform the bat heating test, or does he have data from someone who did? If not, then he's not presenting scientific fact, but rather personal theory or opinion.

It's been a few years now, but back awhile ago heating bats was given the okay. The reasoning was about the same as your engineer friend's. But once real world testing was performed, it was found that heating bats could affect the performance. So, they banned heating again.

Before someone screams, "Show me the data", it's not availabale to the general public. The testing was performed by the same lab that does all of ASA's bat testing.

So Fatboy isn't blamed its me that said it AND that's just what a fella teammate said that I relayed...I was actually very interested in the data not to prove anyone wrong but for educationally purposes, why does everyone automatically think people are negative, bias, or jerks bout stuff...

Ill let you fellas keep discussing and ill make to keep my gear in the house at nice 70 degrees.

 

[VanSin23]

I know that the compression of balls is measured in a controlled temperature lab at 72 degrees. Not sure about the bats but I would say that to have a constant to measure compression by, that it is most likely a controlled temperature environment as well. That being said, if the temperature outside is 40 degrees, then the bat is in a state of a different compression than at 72 degrees. A cold bat will show a different compression reading than the 72 degree bat. So, if you were to put your bat in a sleeve warmer use anything else to warm your bat back to the standard bat testing temperature, then how could it be deemed illegal. Now, before you say the rule is the rule, I understand that totally and agree that it is the rule. It is the same with the balls, the temperature changes the compression of the ball. I hope you can agree that this is true. Although it does not seem logical to penalize someone for warming their bat up to the standard tested temperature, the rule is there to prevent things like balls in ice chests to get the compression harder than the standard and the bats from being propane torch heated to an extreme that could lower the compression of the bat from the standard compression. So, to avoid those possibilities, the rule is there for all cases and is not going to get involved in breaking down different scenarios.

 

[Joker]

this is all very retarded

 

[irishmafia]

ALTERED BAT: When the physical structure of a legal softball bat has been changed.

That phrase is all encompasing of the past tense. To allow for the cooling of the bats in this scenario, the rule would have to say the physical structure is in a changed state.

The change is temporary and in many if not most cases, the bat is back to original condition before the player gets to the plate.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Here for the entertaining, non-scientific theories...

 

[Joker]

keeping a bat in the sun is the same as placing it in front of a space heater, its science

 

[FatBoy28]

There is going to be a temperature to which a bat can be warmed before any altering effects take place. I haven't read the report to know what that temperature is, but I imagine it is a fairly high temperature or they would have to have a rule that composite bats cannot be used when the air temperature exceeds X degrees. I also imagine it is below the temperature a bat would reach in the trunk of said car.

In reality, in the OP scenario no technical altering effects may have taken place but that doesn't change the fact that if the bats are warmer than the air temperature as a result of being near the heater then they would be considered "altered" by rule.

 

[Joker]

its not a certain temperature its the fact a person uses an unnatural heating or cooling source on a piece of equipment. like placing bats in front of a space heater or putting balls in a cooler. these are unnatural environments for a piece of equipment to put into. stop overthinking it

 

[FatBoy28]

The change is temporary and in many if not most cases, the bat is back to original condition before the player gets to the plate.

I'm not arguing the science, I'm arguing the text of the rule.

The change may be temporary and it may not. My point is that by rule, heating=altering and the text of the definition of Altered Bat does not allow for the "de-altering" of the bat by it returning to its original temperature.

 

[Joker]

you're retarded too

 

[FatBoy28]

its not a certain temperature its the fact a person uses an unnatural heating or cooling source on a piece of equipment. like placing bats in front of a space heater or putting balls in a cooler. these are unnatural environments for a piece of equipment to put into. stop overthinking it

I'm not overthinking it. You just said a simpler version of the same thing.

 

[Joker]

yes you are

 

[RabEd Ewok]

Or do like us colder weather folk and just use an old tank bat like Maniac NRG og AV etc. Sorry love ball as much as next guy but when play the early bird tournies here just pull out the old school bats DONE

Yup good bats when the temps are right. Colder temps is when the cold weather bats come out.

Unless of course you want to break a bat, simply because you did not like the way it felt. Then swing away, blow it up, and send it in for a return. Only to learn right at the end of it's life, you loved the bat. I'd be willing to break something I have now, because the warranty expires early next year. Before the season kicks back up again.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I'm not arguing the science, I'm arguing the text of the rule.

The change may be temporary and it may not. My point is that by rule, heating=altering and the text of the definition of Altered Bat does not allow for the "de-altering" of the bat by it returning to its original temperature.

But you are overthinking the rule. You're saying that once a bat's been altered, it can never be unaltered, which simply isn't true.

 

[sjury]

Fatboy, just stop. Your posts are giving me a head ache. You are over thinking this rule. If tape on the handle of a bat is at 4 inches and the umpire pulls the bat. When the player removes the grip and redoes it to 6 inches, it's no longer illegal to use.

It's the same principle as this. The bat is gone now, but it could be back.

 

[FatBoy28]

But you are overthinking the rule. You're saying that once a bat's been altered, it can never be unaltered, which simply isn't true.

That's actually not what I'm saying. I'm saying that while it may be scientifically/technically/engineeringly returned to its original state, that under the rules it is still considered an "altered bat" due to the text of the rule.

Sjury ... Illegal is not the same as altered.

I read/write/intepret international regulations all day so that's the lens I see the rules through. the choice of word is relavant, the placement of punctuation is all relevant. Sorry if that's overthinking it to you all.

 

[Joker]

yes comparing international regulations to a slowpitch softball rulebook is retarded

 

[NCASAUmp]

That's actually not what I'm saying. I'm saying that while it may be scientifically/technically/engineeringly returned to its original state, that under the rules it is still considered an "altered bat" due to the text of the rule.

Sjury ... Illegal is not the same as altered.

I read/write/intepret international regulations all day so that's the lens I see the rules through. the choice of word is relavant, the placement of punctuation is all relevant. Sorry if that's overthinking it to you all.

Yeah, you're definitely overthinking it.

Again, think of the example I gave earlier about the grip tape. Are you saying that once someone built up a tapered grip with grip tape, it can't be "unaltered?"

 

[jfsully]

The thought process of using bat warmers is flawed to begin with. Bats do not break because the bat is cold, the bats break primarily because the cold makes the balls harder. I believe the number is for every 1 degree change in temperature from 72 degrees, the compression of the ball changes by 5.

A 375 compression ball on a 52 degree day is like 475 compression and on a 92 degree day is like hitting a sock.

The ASA study showed a change that was measurable when using bat warmers (I believe when I talked with ASA they said it was 5-7% increase). Here in Florida we have guys trying to use bat warmers when its 70 -80 degrees (not just when its cold) and that certainly is not trying to increase bat life.

(Im quoting this from memory so don't nitpick)

 

[Crash RMX]

Just to tie a bow on this for anyone who cares. Based on the extreme conditions - 28 degrees, the fact that the team moved the bats as soon as the umpire told them to and the belief there was no intent, we decided to let the game result stand. We have now incorporated bat heating into our Eligible Bat rule section. This was a unique situation that we have never encountered before so thanks for all the input. Waaaaaay more discussion than I expected!

 

[MAT25MAT]

The thought process of using bat warmers is flawed to begin with. Bats do not break because the bat is cold, the bats break primarily because the cold makes the balls harder. I believe the number is for every 1 degree change in temperature from 72 degrees, the compression of the ball changes by 5.

I agree with the balls being harder. But the bats break because in the colder temps they dont flex as much! I use the warmer in the colder temps just to protect my bats from breaking. I personally think they perform better too!

 

[Egilfo]

Oh my goodness. Fatboy28 Is officially the most irritating person I've ever seen on these forums. Not even close. Just stop.

 

[joncon]

The thought process of using bat warmers is flawed to begin with. Bats do not break because the bat is cold, the bats break primarily because the cold makes the balls harder.

That has always been my contention.....but I live in the desert so WTF do I know.

ALTERED BAT: When the physical structure of a legal softball bat has been changed.

Using that broad of a definition means that the physical structure of the bat gets changed with the seasonal temperature change, so every bat will be altered.

Hell, the physical structure gets changed a bit with every at bat and every time you throw it on the ground.

There is a reason that law books are thousands of pages. If you want a rule/law to hold up, you need to address all possibilities.

It's a stupid rule but, if you are going to have it, you need to clarify it. Some say it is very simple and clear, but it's not.

Can I put the bat in my bag? That seems OK. It is a bat bag. Can I hang the black bat bag in the sun? That seems OK too but, by doing this, I am heating the bat.

This whole thing should fall under the shut up and play ball rule.

 

[NCASAUmp]

That's why just knowing the text of the rule as it is written is insufficient. You have to understand the interpretation of the rule to know how it is to be used and enforced.

 

[BretMan]

I'm sure that most people here can grasp the difference between a bat being in natural ambient environmental temperatures versus purposely applying an artificial source of heat.

 

[MJL 00]

I'm sure that most people here can grasp the difference between a bat being in natural ambient environmental temperatures versus purposely applying an artificial source of heat.

That's what I was trying to say, but was informed that leaving my bats outside before league is the same as using artificial source of heat...ound:

 

[NCASAUmp]

That's what I was trying to say, but was informed that leaving my bats outside before league is the same as using artificial source of heat...ound:

Not by anyone whose opinion counts.