ASA Heating a bat.

[MJL 00]

i'm sure it matters how much heat and how long they were exposed to the heat

Couldn't agree with you more on this statement. Got this back from the LD who goes to state and national conferences:

So all their bats are in climate controlled environments?

And you should ask these softball experts what scientific heat degree it would need to get to before it has any impact on the bat. Because there is no scientific research to back up whether it helps or not…… However, heating a bat is illegal in ASA softball, per the note found under equipment rule 3-7:

For whats it worth. Not arguing with all of ya just a very vague rule that's all...

 

[NCASAUmp]

Couldn't agree with you more on this statement. Got this back from the LD who goes to state and national conferences:

So all their bats are in climate controlled environments?

And you should ask these softball experts what scientific heat degree it would need to get to before it has any impact on the bat. Because there is no scientific research to back up whether it helps or not…… However, heating a bat is illegal in ASA softball, per the note found under equipment rule 3-7:

For whats it worth. Not arguing with all of ya just a very vague rule that's all...

I call bull**** on his entire story.

Yes, scientific studies HAS backed this up.

Bottom line, don't heat the bats.

 

[MJL 00]

I call bull**** on his entire story.

Yes, scientific studies HAS backed this up.

Bottom line, don't heat the bats with alternative source that are man made.

Fixed it for ya :thumb:

Im just busting your balls fellas I see what you all saying...

 

[Crash RMX]

Don't want to belabor this - I know too late! - but what I would really love to hear are opinions on whether or not to penalize the team after the fact. The game is over, the team with the heated bats won. Should they receive a forfeit? Should the game stand as is? Should it be replayed? Love to hear your thoughts.

 

[MJL 00]

Well its pretty obvious if they cheated per the rules then games should be forfeited correct?

 

[Sully]

My answer and this is a guess is the game stands. If the team wanted to protest, they could have filed a protest, the rule wasn't properly enforced. Once the game is over though, going back and enforcing it after the fact doesn't seem like it would fly.

 

[irishmafia]

Still playing in the Northeast. Last night was below freezing

Well, that right there isn't very smart

and a team brought a heater to the game. They kept their bats near the heater all night. They played 3 games. In the 3rd inning of the last game the opposing captain told the ump it was illegal to heat bats (ASA rule not specific league rule - though we do have a rule against using illegal bats). The umpire told the team to stop using the heater in the next inning (not immediately) but did not penalize the team in any other way. Is this grounds for an enforceable protest?

"Near" a heater doesn't tell us anything about heating the bats.

Then again, if you need a heater in the dugout, you probably shouldn't be playing softball.

 

[RabEd Ewok]

Then again, if you need a heater in the dugout, you probably shouldn't be playing softball.

Thank you, Out of all of the posts, this is the first thing that came to my mind. If you need a heater to stay warm in a sport/game that is played outside. Basically as a time killer, or having fun with the fellas. You need to reevaluate what you play. Dress warm, and stop being a pansie.

 

[MJL 00]

Or do like us colder weather folk and just use an old tank bat like Maniac NRG og AV etc. Sorry love ball as much as next guy but when play the early bird tournies here just pull out the old school bats DONE

 

[tuells10]

Well you need to ask yourself did said heated bats really beat you
Or did a better team that owned a bat warmer beat you

I have a hard time believing that heated bats made that much of a difference

 

[NCASAUmp]

My answer and this is a guess is the game stands. If the team wanted to protest, they could have filed a protest, the rule wasn't properly enforced. Once the game is over though, going back and enforcing it after the fact doesn't seem like it would fly.

^^^^
This is the question to ask. Did the team ever say "protest," or did they just complain?

It sounds like the OP is the League Director. Is that the case?

If they just complained and never said the "P" word, then it's the same as any other bad call. Remind the team about the rule, make sure the umpire is aware of what the rule is, as well as how to prevent these issues from coming up.

If they did protest, well, then they might have a valid protest. It's up to the LD to decide whether to replay the game from that point, or to let the call stand.

 

[FatBoy28]

The only problem is - what do you do when ALL of the bats are in front of the heater?.

Seems to me that once altered, always altered and that by rule the bats can no longer be used. Letting the bats cool down to ambient temperature does not make hem de-altered and legal.

Additionally, since every player can be determined to have used an altered bat all players should be ejected ... game over.

 

[NCASAUmp]

Seems to me that once altered, always altered and that by rule the bats can no longer be used. Letting the bats cool down to ambient temperature does not make hem de-altered and legal.

Not true. Heating a bat is considered altering it, but once it cools back down to relative ambient air temperature, it's no longer considered altered. The ASA definition of an altered bat is "When the physical structure of a legal softball bat has been changed." It does not say "When the physical structure of a legal softball bat has been permanently changed."

Additionally, since every player can be determined to have used an altered bat all players should be ejected ... game over.

There is no rule to support such action. That's up to the League or Tourney Director to decide, not the umpire. The umpire can only eject a player for having an altered bat in the batter's box.

 

[FatBoy28]

Not true. Heating a bat is considered altering it, but once it cools back down to relative ambient air temperature, it's no longer considered altered. The ASA definition of an altered bat is "When the physical structure of a legal softball bat has been changed." It does not say "When the physical structure of a legal softball bat has been permanently changed."

ALTERED BAT: When the physical structure of a legal softball bat has been changed.

That phrase is all encompasing of the past tense. To allow for the cooling of the bats in this scenario, the rule would have to say the physical structure is in a changed state.

There is no rule to support such action. That's up to the League or Tourney Director to decide, not the umpire. The umpire can only eject a player for having an altered bat in the batter's box.

B. When a batter enters the batter’s box with or is discovered using an altered or non-approved bat.
EFFECT: The batter shall be ejected from the game, and if in a tournament, shall be ejected for the remainder of the tournament.

My bad, I read the rule slightly differently when I first read it. I thought it said having used.

Notice the language difference (has been vs. using) ... one is past tense, one is present tense? I humbly suggest that if you are relying on the tense of Rule 7 to say that the batter can only be ejected during his at-bat, then you can't ignore tense in Rule 1 to say a bat can be de-altered.

All that being said, I will modify my previous positon to say that no one is ejected but none of the heated bats can be used.

Now here's a question ... can you take your at bats without a bat? Meaning, if we have no bats to use can we step in the box and have the pitcher pitch hoping that we get walked more than we strike out?

 

[NCASAUmp]

ALTERED BAT: When the physical structure of a legal softball bat has been changed.

That phrase is all encompasing of the past tense. To allow for the cooling of the bats in this scenario, the rule would have to say the physical structure is in a changed state.

But it has been changed. And it can still change back.

B. When a batter enters the batter’s box with or is discovered using an altered or non-approved bat.
EFFECT: The batter shall be ejected from the game, and if in a tournament, shall be ejected for the remainder of the tournament.

My bad, I read the rule slightly differently when I first read it. I thought it said "having used".

Notice the language difference ... one is past tense, one is present tense? I humbly suggest that if you are relying on the tense of Rule 7 to say that the batter can only be ejected during his at-bat, then you can't ignore tense in Rule 1 to say a bat can be de-altered.

All that being said, I will modify my previous positon to say that no one is ejected but none of the heated bats can be used.

Now here's a question ... can you take your at bats without a bat? Meaning, if we have no bats to use can we step in the box and have the pitcher pitch hoping that we get walked more than we strike out?

If it really came down to it, I'd have to call the game and invoke the dreaded 10-1 rule, and if anyone knows me well enough, they know that this is a last resort. If a team does not have the proper equipment to play the game as it was meant to be played, then the game can not be played.

 

[FatBoy28]

And it can still change back.

where is that in the rules? You agreed that it has been changed and that is all the rule addresses. Anything else is you adding your own views to the rules.

 

[FatBoy28]

If it really came down to it, I'd have to call the game and invoke the dreaded 10-1 rule, and if anyone knows me well enough, they know that this is a last resort. If a team does not have the proper equipment to play the game as it was meant to be played, then the game can not be played.

But is it really any different than a batter with a bat fishing for a walk?

I get what your saying and I can't say I disagree, but would the game situation matter any to you? Say the team with the heated bats is ahead and they say they didn't intend to alter the bats and they just weren't paying attention to where they put the heater so they aren't going to fight you on tossing the bats but at least give them a chance to keep going and try to at least hold the other team defensively and eke out the win. Its not like there is a safety concern so would you entertain their request?

 

[MJL 00]

where is that in the rules? You agreed that it has been changed and that is all the rule addresses. Anything else is you adding your own views to the rules.[/QUOTE]

After talking with a friend that is an engineer and also plays ball, he states heating a bat is not, like rolling or shaving, altering it enough or any to make it a better bat, only warming the material would make it more elastic so that would not break down as easy as if its cold increasing durability.

To a idiot like myself HHHHMMMM gee kind of sounds pretty basic to me...

As my quoted comment before from the LD, show me the scientific proof warming a bat increases its performance. AGAIN not arguing, it is a rule and shouldn't be broken, BUT what would I know :yawn:

 

[NCASAUmp]

where is that in the rules? You agreed that it has been changed and that is all the rule addresses. Anything else is you adding your own views to the rules.

It's in black-and-white. Not all changes are permanent.

Years ago, putting excessive grip tape on a bat was considered "altering" it. Did that mean that the bat is permanently changed? No.

 

[NCASAUmp]

But is it really any different than a batter with a bat fishing for a walk?

I get what your saying and I can't say I disagree, but would the game situation matter any to you? Say the team with the heated bats is ahead and they say they didn't intend to alter the bats and they just weren't paying attention to where they put the heater so they aren't going to fight you on tossing the bats but at least give them a chance to keep going and try to at least hold the other team defensively and eke out the win. Its not like there is a safety concern so would you entertain their request?

In the eyes of the rule, intent is not relevant. If the bat's been heated, it's been heated.

As I've said before, before I call the game, I'd want to talk with someone within the league or tournament. However, if a team doesn't have the proper equipment to play the game properly, then the game should not continue.

 

[NCASAUmp]

After talking with a friend that is an engineer and also plays ball, he states heating a bat is not, like rolling or shaving, altering it enough or any to make it a better bat, only warming the material would make it more elastic so that would not break down as easy as if its cold increasing durability.

To a idiot like myself HHHHMMMM gee kind of sounds pretty basic to me...

As my quoted comment before from the LD, show me the scientific proof warming a bat increases its performance. AGAIN not arguing, it is a rule and shouldn't be broken, BUT :yawn:

That's not what the data has shown. The data has shown that the effects of heating the bat does affect its performance, and that it does last longer than the trip from the dugout to the batter's box.

 

[MJL 00]

Where can we find that data, cause my LD is also VP of our state board and goes to the annual national ASA meeting, he would like to read it and so would I...

AGAIN, what they did was wrong BUT sitting bats out during day, in cars, back of pickups on a hot day is altering

COM ON MAN

:lame:

 

[FatBoy28]

After talking with a friend that is an engineer and also plays ball, he states heating a bat is not, like rolling or shaving, altering it enough or any to make it a better bat, only warming the material would make it more elastic so that would not break down as easy as if its cold increasing durability.

That addresses the "physical structure" part of the rule and not the "has been". If that is the case, then your position should be that heating a bat is not altering a bat at all because it doesn't change the "physical structure". Making the material more elastic does make it a better bat. The whole point of composite bats vs. metal bats is because the composite material makes the bat more elastic and able to impart more momentum on the outging softball.

While were on it, doesn't every hit alter the "physical structure" of the bat by breaking down the fibers? The barrel flexes on every hit which likely takes it out of round enough to make it illegal midway through contact even though it returns to round after contact (see elastic vs. plastic deformation) so an umpire injecting his own views could call every hit to be made with an "altered bat".

My point is only that the discussions on what is/isn't altered can go from stretching the imagination to downright conspiratorial so we should defer to what is stated specifically in the rules.

My focus is on the term "has been" altered and I don't see where the rules allow that it can be un-altered. Words mean things or else the umpires would be dictators ruling with their pens and phones.

 

[ureout]

I know this is a different orginization....back about 5 years ago this was brought up in Senior Softball SSUSA the same arguments were made about the bat being temporaily altered.....funny thing was in there rule book was a full page ad for bat warmers.....just after that they say now they are allowed....even though nothing in rule book to cover it

 

[Joker]

fat boy just wants to argue

 

[FatBoy28]

fat boy just wants to argue

So are you the pot or the kettle?

 

[Joker]

i'm the guy with experience and can spot a bull**** artist from a mile away

 

[MJL 00]

All im trying to say is that telling me that im altering the state of a bat by leaving it in the sun during the day before I play is wrong/illegal/trying to alter is bull crap...my grip gets sticky, my leather on my glove softens up, batting gloves feel better. Hell I stick all my equipment out there. My cup altered then? My wife wishes...

Sorry just trying to throw lil humor in...

 

[Joker]

All im trying to say is that telling me that im altering the state of a bat by leaving it in the sun during the day before I play is wrong/illegal/trying to alter is bull crap...my grip gets sticky, my leather on my glove softens up, batting gloves feel better. Hell I stick all my equipment out there. My cup altered then? My wife wishes...

Sorry just trying to throw lil humor in...

again you're retarded

 

[sjury]

You're grasping at straws people and splitting hairs for sake of arguing something. Forget the sun, the moon, and the natural existence of man. It's black and white like the rule book says. Did the players heat the bat? Did they cool the balls? Did they shave it? Every rule is written for players.

Easy, did the player(s) heat the bats? ... yes, .... fine... they are now to be removed from the game. That's it.

Why do people have to try and rationalize and debate stuff so much.