Outing homerun derby "businessmen"

[jbo911]

I know it's 100% debatable but see it this way...

I crack my bat, have a buddy cut the end, fill it with whatever, pay him for it and use it for BP...you really think my buddy is getting sued for that???

Tell me what's different??? And you can't say he didn't do it for profit because I paid him for it...the bat is ILLEGAL and he altered a bat I paid for with my money...once I buy a bat, IT'S MINE, end of story...if I want to paint it friggin rainbow colors and hit BP with it or hit HR Derby's with it, I can, I bought it, I do whatever I want with it...once it's in my possesion it's mine, END OF STORY...

The bat painters, to hell and back with them, the bat shavers, what can you really do...they are not doing anything illegal to a bat that was purchased by someone...if they are trying to sell it as a LEGAL bat, yes, that's a whole different game...

You can quote laws, court cases whatever you want...the bottom line is once they have a disclaimer that the bat is no longer legal for play, THEY ARE 100% LEGIT in their sales of shaving bats...the disclaimer is there because of lawsuits...without it they are going to get in trouble, with it the bat companies can't do a damn thing...and that's been proven in those cases against previous bat cutters...

Like it or not it won't stop...remember, the shaving guys are NOT passing the bat off as a legal bat, they are dissolved of any litigation by using the correct language in their disclaimers...

IT IS THE END USER, NOT THE SHAVER!!!

No, it wasn't, and no, it doesn't. If they remove the trademarks and association marks then you are correct. If they did that, would they have any business though? Same reason their work is "undetectable".

Will your friend get sued? I doubt it, because it's one person nobody cares about. People making tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars doing it are a different story though.

Don't confuse the bat companies and associations not doing anything with them not being able to. I also think it's funny you distinguish between the bat painters and the shavers when they're doing the exact same thing.

 

[dponder]

No, it wasn't, and no, it doesn't. If they remove the trademarks and association marks then you are correct. If they did that, would they have any business though? Same reason their work is "undetectable".

Will your friend get sued? I doubt it, because it's one person nobody cares about. People making tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars doing it are a different story though.

Don't confuse the bat companies and associations not doing anything with them not being able to. I also think it's funny you distinguish between the bat painters and the shavers when they're doing the exact same thing.

This argument could endure Armageddon I think. For some reason, facts and logic just don't seem to have the same authority they used to. Everything is relative.

 

[jbo911]

Everyone has their opinion about whether it's wrong or not, and that's fine. Ethically wrong is subjective. It also changes. I know people that used to be 100% clean that are not anymore. It's not like it's angels and demons out there. There are a lot of people in the middle, and a lot of people that use every now and again.

The legal ramifications for "businesses" are not opinion though. You can't just buy whatever you want and do anything you want to it and resell it.

 

[TonyB]

Never carry a knife to a gun fight. Kinda like people like myself who have a Conceal Carry permit. I carry everyday, ALWAYS assume that they have a concealed weapon to0, never leave home without it. That being said, I ALWAYS have an "Outlaw" prepped Utrip stick in my bag at all times should the time arise that I need it to even out the playing field against the opposing team "should" they be using one against my team. Can I always tell if there is a cut stick on the opposing team, NO, do I use it anyway? NO, but I'm always prepared. I have pitched a many of games (playing Outlaw) where the opposing teams ALL have cut, painted and rolled bats. Is it scary, by all means. But it is apart of the game and should be expected at anytime. It's sad but true and it is all over the softball world.

Unless you're using your shaved bat to defend yourself or others against people with shaved bats, it's not like a CCW.

 

[dponder]

Everyone has their opinion about whether it's wrong or not, and that's fine. Ethically wrong is subjective. It also changes. I know people that used to be 100% clean that are not anymore. It's not like it's angels and demons out there. There are a lot of people in the middle, and a lot of people that use every now and again.

The legal ramifications for "businesses" are not opinion though. You can't just buy whatever you want and do anything you want to it and resell it.

I agree with you. My post was more tongue in cheek, sorry if it didn't come across that way.

It's black and white for me but I know people have opinions.

 

[Jimmy34]

No, it wasn't, and no, it doesn't. If they remove the trademarks and association marks then you are correct. If they did that, would they have any business though? Same reason their work is "undetectable".

Will your friend get sued? I doubt it, because it's one person nobody cares about. People making tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars doing it are a different story though.

Don't confuse the bat companies and associations not doing anything with them not being able to. I also think it's funny you distinguish between the bat painters and the shavers when they're doing the exact same thing.

I am not trying to really go on about this nor do I think you are wrong...I'm just stating facts, when a bat PAINTER changes one bat to another and then puts association marks on them he is legally in some big trouble...that's like copyright infringement or something like that...

If a bat SHAVER, takes your bat, and alters the weight he is not doing anything other than that, maybe when they put the new endcap on that's poured from a mold he is doing copyright crap...but LEGALLY, the reason all the established bat shavers put the disclaimer on their site and have you fill out a form saying you are responsible, the bat companies can NOT do a damn thing about it as long as they are providing a service and doing what the client asks for...

Trust me, a few guys out there that are cutting bats have ZERO legal issues when the disclaimer is used, I know this is true 100% and anyone can argue it but there's one particular person out there who has been in business for 4 years now and has had a few associations and also bat companies try to stop him and every single time they have failed...

If you send me a bat and I paint it all up with friggin rainbows and ribbons and don't cover the association stamps and do it for 100's of guys (without ever using a bat logo or association stamp) no way shape or form can ANYONE do a thing about it...I can drill holes in a bat, pour endload in a bat, thin the handle and whatever else and no one can do a thing about it...if I do it for others, no one can do a thing about it as long as I state on my website or wherever that I am not responsible and the bat is NOT legal any more after I do whatever to it...

When you get a bat cut from a notable website who's been in business for a while and has a big following you MUST sign that disclaimer, electronically or whatever, and that absolves the shaver...

Look at all the guys on ebay with 1000's of positive feedback, you think if the bat companies could do anything they'd have those ads taken down???

MORALLY, ETHICALLY and whateverly, it's WRONG, but not an illegal business...

 

[Laoch]

So, hidden advert? PP ready!

 

[jbo911]

I am not trying to really go on about this nor do I think you are wrong...I'm just stating facts, when a bat PAINTER changes one bat to another and then puts association marks on them he is legally in some big trouble...that's like copyright infringement or something like that...

If a bat SHAVER, takes your bat, and alters the weight he is not doing anything other than that, maybe when they put the new endcap on that's poured from a mold he is doing copyright crap...but LEGALLY, the reason all the established bat shavers put the disclaimer on their site and have you fill out a form saying you are responsible, the bat companies can NOT do a damn thing about it as long as they are providing a service and doing what the client asks for...

Trust me, a few guys out there that are cutting bats have ZERO legal issues when the disclaimer is used, I know this is true 100% and anyone can argue it but there's one particular person out there who has been in business for 4 years now and has had a few associations and also bat companies try to stop him and every single time they have failed...

If you send me a bat and I paint it all up with friggin rainbows and ribbons and don't cover the association stamps and do it for 100's of guys (without ever using a bat logo or association stamp) no way shape or form can ANYONE do a thing about it...I can drill holes in a bat, pour endload in a bat, thin the handle and whatever else and no one can do a thing about it...if I do it for others, no one can do a thing about it as long as I state on my website or wherever that I am not responsible and the bat is NOT legal any more after I do whatever to it...

When you get a bat cut from a notable website who's been in business for a while and has a big following you MUST sign that disclaimer, electronically or whatever, and that absolves the shaver...

Look at all the guys on ebay with 1000's of positive feedback, you think if the bat companies could do anything they'd have those ads taken down???

MORALLY, ETHICALLY and whateverly, it's WRONG, but not an illegal business...

That's like saying Al Capone didn't break any laws until he committed tax evasion because he wasn't convicted. Just because someone gets away with something doesn't make it legal. If you change the bat, but don't remove the trademark and stamps it's the same thing as putting those stamps and trademarks on a different bat. Because those trademarks and stamps are now on a fundamentally changed bat.

 

[BTH Softball]

I'll do the advertising since the OG poster knows about these guys he must have been looking for something...:thinking:


I know them both, don't purchase from them but I know them and they run a business of shaving bats to make them hotter and BOTH have disclaimers about not using the bats they cut in official play and BOTH guys advertise them as "for use in HR Derby's only"

No crime in taking someones bat and doing anything you want to use it for "fun" and not one bat company can do a thing about what you do to your bat UNLESS you use it in sanctioned play...they are not changing association stamps nor are they painting them on illegally, they are taking peoples bats and making them weigh less and have disclaimers...all legal...

It's the USER who is wrong, not the doctor...

Do I condone this...NO FRIGGIN WAY, but it is what it is, blame the end user, not the doctor...

Keep any insight about me to your self please


I disagree I never said anything about a crime I said we as a softball community should have a stronger voice and publicly shame these people for their ethics, as well as the end user. If you think its cool they profit in this way good for you. You are part of the problem.

 

[phxraida15]

This has got to be the dumbest thread I've read in awhile... Crying about it on SBF is going to get absolutely no where! Starting a stand on SBF is a needle in a hay field... I just find it amusing and stupid that people are actually getting worked up and pissed off in this thread that's going to make zero impact on the topic...

 

[dponder]

OP, you aren't going to shame cheaters into changing. There may be a small margin of people who, when shamed, will respond in the way you want them to. But, if they are cheating freely in a game with no real rewards or societal impact, their morals and ethics are skewed in such a way that any effort, outside of punishment, won't make a difference.

 

[Jimmy34]

Keep any insight about me to your self please


I disagree I never said anything about a crime I said we as a softball community should have a stronger voice and publicly shame these people for their ethics, as well as the end user. If you think its cool they profit in this way good for you. You are part of the problem.

I was being sarcastic...I do NOT condone the cheating, I pitch and effing hate it...years ago, before the actual rules were stated for safety I had used a rolled Extended and actually had a shaved PST, I was young nieve and looking for an edge...

I have come to realize though that Florida might be worse than NJ and CT for shaved bats, it's bad down here...

 

[hitBOMBS2]

this is bull**** advertisement here:

SCX3 28
Vinci AB74M​

 

[jbo911]

I was being sarcastic...I do NOT condone the cheating, I pitch and effing hate it...years ago, before the actual rules were stated for safety I had used a rolled Extended and actually had a shaved PST, I was young nieve and looking for an edge...

I have come to realize though that Florida might be worse than NJ and CT for shaved bats, it's bad down here...

I completely agree with that. When the floridians come up it's all they talk about and all i see when i go down there.

 

[Jimmy34]

I completely agree with that. When the floridians come up it's all they talk about and all i see when i go down there.

My first tourney here and I was on a new team, one guy asked me what I was swinging and I loved my 26.5 Blackout, it's all I swung for a year...he says, "nah, use this"...I asked him and he tells me "we swing cut sticks bro..." ummm no thanks...they talk about it like it's no big deal, so crazy...

 

[mjs]

these arguments or threads will never end

 

[chrometip78]

So, hidden advert? PP ready!

Suppose to PM so the mods can't see bro.

Keep any insight about me to your self please


I disagree I never said anything about a crime I said we as a softball community should have a stronger voice and publicly shame these people for their ethics, as well as the end user. If you think its cool they profit in this way good for you. You are part of the problem.

Easy on him Jimmy, he's got a sensitive b-hole.

This has got to be the dumbest thread I've read in awhile... Crying about it on SBF is going to get absolutely no where! Starting a stand on SBF is a needle in a hay field... I just find it amusing and stupid that people are actually getting worked up and pissed off in this thread that's going to make zero impact on the topic...

LOUD NOISES!

this is bull**** advertisement here:

SCX3 28
Vinci AB74M

Only those who know, know the scx3 is the best bat to cut.

these arguments or threads will never end

It's the spice of life, you're welcome.

 

[scrub]

Never carry a knife to a gun fight. Kinda like people like myself who have a Conceal Carry permit. I carry everyday, ALWAYS assume that they have a concealed weapon to0, never leave home without it. That being said, I ALWAYS have an "Outlaw" prepped Utrip stick in my bag at all times should the time arise that I need it to even out the playing field against the opposing team "should" they be using one against my team. Can I always tell if there is a cut stick on the opposing team, NO, do I use it anyway? NO, but I'm always prepared. I have pitched a many of games (playing Outlaw) where the opposing teams ALL have cut, painted and rolled bats. Is it scary, by all means. But it is apart of the game and should be expected at anytime. It's sad but true and it is all over the softball world.

Way quicker ways to say you have a 1.7" pecker, jussayin'. Unless you actually do get into gunfights on regular occasions...

Never understood how other guys bats make you hit the ball weaker. Is that psychological or do shavers actually have some kind of anti-magnetic, composite thickening effect on other bats around them? Do explain. I mean really, you just trotted out the most tired, used up huer of an excuse in the "Why I swing Shaved Bats" handbook, big ups on that.

 

[chrometip78]

Does anyone seriously believe those who denounce swinging glass so vehemently? Hell I didn't know anything about shaved or rolled bats until I found this website.

 

[CarlsbadDrew]

WHO BLEEPIN CARES! Stop crying. If an issue arises where you play, deal with it individually. The new balls are dumber & the approved bats are waaaaay hotter. Cheating is dying off rapidly in my area. (so cal).

Everywhere I play, there are plenty of dudes that can kill a pitcher with a stock bat. Get a helmet & shut up.

 

[Devil Dog]

It could, but would depend on the music you are bumping. I only want to hear Black and Yellow, because that is the only rap song I heard on the portable boom box for the first 18 months I lived here.

That would be a tight setup for Jason Aldean or Zac Brown Band.

Hearing that song in Vegas 117 times in a row made me hate Pittsburgh and the Steelers that much more.

 

[dponder]

Hearing that song in Vegas 117 times in a row made me hate Pittsburgh and the Steelers that much more.

Lol, amen brother.

 

[bb666b77]

They are legit business owners though, that is what you are missing. Nothing they are doing is illegal. You can argue morality all you want but the law doesn't really care about that. It's only concerned with what is written in the books.

No, I don't swing a shaved bat nor do I advocate such a behavior. But comparing bat altering to selling illegal drugs is apples to oranges.

read this vvvvvvvv

It's actually illegal. I think it was the ASA that took down the major ones several years ago. They took them on under the counterfeiting laws I believe, because they're selling a bat with a TM stamp and an association mark that are no longer valid or correct.

I'll see if I can find the thread. Shorel explained all the legalese for us.

i turn them in on ebay when i see their rolling or shaving ads....don't know if it is doing any good tho...it seems ebay don't give a crap about it,as long as they get their fees......

 

[pj3p]

If these businesses were indeed legitimate.......hows about we insist that they engrave "Home Run Derby" on the bats that they alter? HMMMM

 

[frontagerdmaui]

I roll all my NIW bats when they arrive. I am not a cheater.

It breaks in the bat evenly and helps it last longer. That is it. Does it hit a little farther like a bat with 500 hits? Sure. But I didn't add or take anything away and if I have a problem, can send it back w/o worrying about being denied a replacement. I have NEVER had an ump inspect my bats and proclaim them illegal. So suck it.

If a guy can injure someone with a shaved bat, I guarantee that he can do it with a stock one too. These are the guys who have warning track power who want to hit Lord7 305' HR's... Guys who swing a clean stick and hit 350' bombs aren't swinging dirty. It doesn't make sense. Why risk getting banned for injuring someone when you can get it done legally?

 

[Josh916]

I won't get into the legal thing about rolling bats, look up assoc. rules it states that it's indeed altering the bat. As far as rolling a bat makes it last longer is total horse ****. Will get less cuts because you are already breaking down the composite by squeezing the thing and breaking composite fibers down. If you roll a bat it will break outside in. If you shave a bat or keep it legit it will break inside out. Meaning the crack will show up inside the barrel before cracking on the outside. Rolling the crack will be on the outside before the inside of the barrel more often then not. Have seen plenty of examples of this when I lived in CA.

 

[frontagerdmaui]

I won't get into the legal thing about rolling bats, look up assoc. rules it states that it's indeed altering the bat. As far as rolling a bat makes it last longer is total horse ****. Will get less cuts because you are already breaking down the composite by squeezing the thing and breaking composite fibers down. If you roll a bat it will break outside in. If you shave a bat or keep it legit it will break inside out. Meaning the crack will show up inside the barrel before cracking on the outside. Rolling the crack will be on the outside before the inside of the barrel more often then not. Have seen plenty of examples of this when I lived in CA.

Agree to disagree. I have broken only ONE bat in my career. It was an OG Booger I bought USED from CASEY. A serious masher. No regrets. The only other bat I have returned was a mutant that telescoped on my buddy. I have bought dozens of bats for friends and team mates and rolled them all. As far back as 2005 With the OG red and blue Jeff Hall models. All of them still going strong. And none of them have been deemed illegal by any ump. Of course they call it illegal. Bat companies don't want you extending the life of bats. Sales would plummet. Associations are going to enforce rules that keep the sport around and that includes keeping new sales up. Why do you think EVERY year there is some HOT new bat? Yet supposedly they all are required to test under the posted guidelines. You sheeple are dumb as a box of rox if you think any bat produced is hotter than an OG Extended. That is how I could sell my used one for $500....

 

[Jimmy34]

Agree to disagree. I have broken only ONE bat in my career. It was an OG Booger I bought USED from CASEY. A serious masher. No regrets. The only other bat I have returned was a mutant that telescoped on my buddy. I have bought dozens of bats for friends and team mates and rolled them all. As far back as 2005 With the OG red and blue Jeff Hall models. All of them still going strong. And none of them have been deemed illegal by any ump. Of course they call it illegal. Bat companies don't want you extending the life of bats. Sales would plummet. Associations are going to enforce rules that keep the sport around and that includes keeping new sales up. Why do you think EVERY year there is some HOT new bat? Yet supposedly they all are required to test under the posted guidelines. You sheeple are dumb as a box of rox if you think any bat produced is hotter than an OG Extended. That is how I could sell my used one for $500....

I concur with all of the above...

 

[TonyB]

It's not like it's someone's opinion that it's illegal. It's stated very clearly in every major sanctioning body's rule book.

 

[Kaji]

I roll all my NIW bats when they arrive. I am not a cheater.

You are a cheater according to rules about altering bats.