ASA Strike Zone

[waldo8403]

Does anyone remember a thread that had diagrams from a side view of a pitch flight and how where it lands relevant to different maximum heights and how that translates to the strike zone over the plate?

Last night the other team had a guy watch strike 3 on a pitch that was about 6 feet high and landed about 1 inch behind the plate. He calmly looked at the ump and said "really", the ump responded "did you see where it landed?", then the batter gave him the death glare and said "Where it landed has nothing to do with it!!!"

After the game the ump was talking to me about this and I told him I thought he was wrong and agreed with the other team. I don't think there is any way that a ball that is very flat and just clears the plate was ever at knee height over the plate. The ump responded "whatever, that's how I call them, it's a hitters game and I've been playing for 17 years and I call the black part as the plate also." I said "that's not right, your job isn't to ump however you want, it's to enforce the rules as they are written. He asked if he called it the same way for both teams.

So I had to croos the line and I responded, "Yeah you called it equally shiXXy for both teams!! And he walked away.

Back to the main question am I missing something on my interpretation of the strike zone.

Let's say average knee height is 20" and the plate is roughly 20" from front to back, the pitch would have to be traveling at roughly a 45 degree angle as it crossed the front of the plate in order to be in the strike zone over the plate and land just behind the plate.

I realize many umps only look at the landing spot to determine if it was a strike and although that is wrong in general you could do it if you adjusted the "landing area" depending on the height of the pitch.

 

[PCMAY]

You might read this thread. Several of the guys discuss the strike zone.

http://forums.softballfans.com/showthread.php?t=1370843

 

[sjury]

First, rule number 1, never argue balls and strikes, that should help if this happens again.

Second, everyone assumes the ball comes in at some magic angle on a straight line, which is completely false. The ball drops at a greater decline to the plate then accent from the pitchers hand, and the apex of the ball is not going to be 25 feet from the batter when pitched at 50 feet it will be more like 15 feet, all because of gravity, wind, etc. It's not all that shameful to call balls and strikes based on where it lands, look at mat ball. There are advantages and disadvantages to playing either way. Right handed pitcher could land one off the plate for a strike towards the left handed batters box because they catch the front corner of the plate with no mat, but they could pitch the same pitch and catch the right batters box side of the mat on an inside pitch and get a strike. It all evens out in the end.

Best bet is the ball crosses the front of the plate at the batters knees and landed an inch behind the plate. Play ball.

 

[Illegal pitcher]

Second, everyone assumes the ball comes in at some magic angle on a straight line, which is completely false. The ball drops at a greater decline to the plate then accent from the pitchers hand, and the apex of the ball is not going to be 25 feet from the batter when pitched at 50 feet it will be more like 15 feet, all because of gravity, wind, etc.

According to the book "Physics of Baseball & Softball", for a 12' high pitch, the ball will start to drop at about 25' from the plate.

 

[trip]

we need pitchFX or whatever it's called on the sb fields. the only bitching i hear is from strike calls. gtfo of here and swing the bat.

 

[joncon]

A 6' arc that lands 12" directly behind the plate will more than likely cross the strike zone. Physics is constant.


Hell, pretty much anything that lands 12" directly behind the plate will have crossed the zone.

Get a piece of graph paper and draw it.

The ball is going to peak half way to the plate (actually halfway to the point it reaches the release height ) which will will be very very close to the plate.

If you can draw an 6' to 12' arc that lands 12" behind the plate and doesn't cross the zone on a normal sized batter, I'd like to see it. It would have to be a low fast ball or a 18' rainbow.

the apex of the ball is not going to be 25 feet from the batter when pitched at 50 feet it will be more like 15 feet

Say what? The apex will be very close to half way. That's almost like saying that you can throw a ball straight up 25' and it will come down 15'.

If the point of release is @ 3' high, when the ball get back to 3' high, the apex will be half that distance. I'm no rocket scientist but I don't see how anything else is possible on a slow pitched softball.

On a strike pitch, the ball will get back to the 3' mark very very close to the plate.

Disclaimer: Like I said, I'm no rocket scientist.

 

[trip]

those butt****ers that throw a good backspin ball can do it. i've seen many that land six inches behind the plate, but are over the batter's head when they cross

 

[MP33]

Does anyone remember a thread that had diagrams from a side view of a pitch flight and how where it lands relevant to different maximum heights and how that translates to the strike zone over the plate?

Last night the other team had a guy watch strike 3 on a pitch that was about 6 feet high and landed about 1 inch behind the plate. He calmly looked at the ump and said "really", the ump responded "did you see where it landed?", then the batter gave him the death glare and said "Where it landed has nothing to do with it!!!"

After the game the ump was talking to me about this and I told him I thought he was wrong and agreed with the other team. I don't think there is any way that a ball that is very flat and just clears the plate was ever at knee height over the plate. The ump responded "whatever, that's how I call them, it's a hitters game and I've been playing for 17 years and I call the black part as the plate also." I said "that's not right, your job isn't to ump however you want, it's to enforce the rules as they are written. He asked if he called it the same way for both teams.

So I had to croos the line and I responded, "Yeah you called it equally shiXXy for both teams!! And he walked away.
Back to the main question am I missing something on my interpretation of the strike zone.

Let's say average knee height is 20" and the plate is roughly 20" from front to back, the pitch would have to be traveling at roughly a 45 degree angle as it crossed the front of the plate in order to be in the strike zone over the plate and land just behind the plate.

I realize many umps only look at the landing spot to determine if it was a strike and although that is wrong in general you could do it if you adjusted the "landing area" depending on the height of the pitch.

And this is the time your suspension would have started. Can't confront umps off the field out here, and I'm going to guess it's that way in a lot of places. Bottom line is, it's the umps strike zone, you gotta live by it. Another solution, go ump yourself

 

[Redfuzzbutt]

If the point of release is @ 3' high, when the ball get back to 3' high, the apex will be half that distance. I'm no rocket scientist but I don't see how anything else is possible on a slow pitched softball.

I would agree in a vacuum tube. No wind resistance means that he ball will not slow down with it's forward momentum. Wind resistance slows down the forward momentum of the ball, so it's not moving as quickly (I know, it's slow pitch) at the end of the throw than it was at the beginning.

The constants in the equation is gravity, mass/size of the ball, and wind resistance (for the sake of the argument). The only variable is the speed the ball travels because of the resistance (co efficiency of drag).

Gravity is pulling the ball down the whole time, despite whatever angle and speed it's moving. The slower the ball goes, the less distance it travels and the sharper the angel is down.

I'm no rocket scientist either, just enjoyed HS physics. One of the few classes that actually made sense to me.

To the OP: Without witnessing the pitch ourselves, it's difficult to judge if it was indeed a strike or ball. It doesn't sound like it was a strike but if you already got 2 on ya, that batter better be swinging at whatever is close. Pitchers know that, that's why it wasn't a meat ball.

A consistent blue, regardless of their strike zone, is better than an inconsistent one any day.

 

[joncon]

those butt****ers that throw a good backspin ball can do it. i've seen many that land six inches behind the plate, but are over the batter's head when they cross

I'm sure this is a trolling attempt but, a legal pitch that goes over the batter's head and lands 6" behind the plate cannot happen on this planet.

 

[rhound50]

I really hope you are trolling and not actually this big a ***** in real life.

 

[sjury]

According to the book "Physics of Baseball & Softball", for a 12' high pitch, the ball will start to drop at about 25' from the plate.

That graph is wrong on a few accounts... the ball will not travel at the same speed from release to landing, as the ball slows it will drop faster, the graph says no spin, unfortunately every ball, except a knuckle ball will spin and wind... the ball will travel in a manner more like this....I know it's a golf graphic but the same principles apply.

Say what? The apex will be very close to half way. That's almost like saying that you can throw a ball straight up 25' and it will come down 15'.

If the point of release is @ 3' high, when the ball get back to 3' high, the apex will be half that distance. I'm no rocket scientist but I don't see how anything else is possible on a slow pitched softball.

On a strike pitch, the ball will get back to the 3' mark very very close to the plate.

Disclaimer: Like I said, I'm no rocket scientist.

Please see the above... I do agree if you get the ball 6 to 12 feet and it lands from 1 inch to 20 inches behind the plate, it crossed the strike zone at some point. There are very few exceptions.

 

[Fin09]

Bottom line is, the "guy from the other team" (we all know it was almost certainly you) shouldn't have been watching that pitch go by. Should have been swinging. The 6' arc pitch that lands 1" behind the plate is a strike 1000% of the time. You can talk physics all you want, and if you saw the pitch from the side, you'd have seen it cross the height of the batter's knee at the front of the plate. The rulebook states from under the back shoulder to the knee, but I'll be perfectly honest with you- I don't care if it crosses at or above the knee- if it has the required arc, and crosses the plate under the shoulder, it's a strike. If that means it clears the plate by 1/4" with 6' of arc, you'd better be swinging, or you're going to be down a strike or you'll be owing the team beer. The only times that I've ever been questioned about that is from players who didn't know that's supposed to be called a strike.

Swing the bat.

 

[Illegal pitcher]

That graph is wrong on a few accounts... the ball will not travel at the same speed from release to landing, as the ball slows it will drop faster, the graph says no spin, unfortunately every ball, except a knuckle ball will spin and wind... the ball will travel in a manner more like this....I know it's a golf graphic but the same principles apply.

Sorry, but it's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about. The arc of a slow-pitch is nothing like the trajectory of a golf ball. Golf balls have dimples and can spin at 3,500+ RPM.

 

[spos21ram]

What umpire in their right mind would call that pitch a ball? A pitch that meets the height requirement, that crosses the plate, and lands an inch behind the plate better be called a strike, or as an umpire, you're asking for trouble. That is a friggin meatball!!! It's a hitters game, swing the damn bat. This guy is joking right?

 

[NCASAUmp]

It's slow pitch softball. Swing the damn bat, T-Rex.

 

[dttruax]

I love it when umps play "invisible mat ball" when calling balls and strikes....







not.....

 

[spos21ram]

I love it when umps play "invisible mat ball" when calling balls and strikes....







not.....

Come on man. 6 foot pitch = meets height requirement, the ball crossed the plate and landed and inch past the plate. How is that not a strike. We are talking an ASA 6 foot pitch. If this was USSSA in certain states where the 3 from release to 10' goes right out the window then I'd say he may have a gripe, but a 6 foot pitch is crossing at the front knee, it's a strike. USSSA here is pretty much 3 from the ground, 8 foot max. Balls cross at the ankles are strikes. We deal with it and adjust. We stand way up in the box.

 

[joncon]

I do agree if you get the ball 6 to 12 feet and it lands from 1 inch to 20 inches behind the plate, it crossed the strike zone at some point. There are very few exceptions.

Absolutely.

As for the graph, the arc for a lobbed softball is completely different than a thrown ball, batted ball, golf ball...whatever. There is no significant lift coming from seams, dimples or speed.


The mat is where it's at It eliminates most strike call arguments. It may not be dead accurate but it is close enough for SPSB and it is certainly consistent.

Around here, the plate and the mat is a strike so, if you are silly enough to stand deep in the box, a strike can land between your feet. BUT, we simply adjust to the parameters.

 

[andy-rockstar]

The moral of the story is to never watch a potential Strike 3.

 

[puckdropper]

Lets look at the plate having a light shinning straight up, if a pitch meets the height and crosses the path of the light it is in the strike zone and it is hittable. I know that umps are human , but they also can tell if it passed thu the strike zone. I can put my left toe on the right side of pitchers plate and stretch to the right and throw a curve the cuts across the strike zone. I don't get the call , but it is I think a strike.

 

[joncon]

I can put my left toe on the right side of pitchers plate and stretch to the right and throw a curve the cuts across the strike zone

Keep your glove up and your mask on for that one

 

[sjury]

Sorry, but it's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about. The arc of a slow-pitch is nothing like the trajectory of a golf ball. Golf balls have dimples and can spin at 3,500+ RPM.

You're not worth arguing with, I've seen you post in other areas and look stupid, so I'll just let this one go.

 

[Illegal pitcher]

You're not worth arguing with, I've seen you post in other areas and look stupid, so I'll just let this one go.

You're letting it go probably because you finally realized that you're wrong. I doubt you'd admit it though. The graph I posted was in a book, written by a physicist. But, I'm sure you know more than him, right? :der:

 

[waldo8403]

Fin 09 - I have no reason to lie, it was not me

MP 33 - I am known in the area as a long time ump who never complains about calls. Frequently umps will approach me after a game and that's exactly how this conversation started, he came to my dugout and asked me what I thought about the other teams guy being pissed about that strike call!

Dttruax - EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!

Spos 21 ram - You may want to actually read the rulebook definition of strike zone!!!!! It's really pretty simple I don't think a 6 foot high pitch that lands very close to the back of the plate was ever actually 20 inches high at any time over the plate. Yes it's a hitters game and I have no problem with that being a strike in mat ball because that is how a strike is defined in mat ball, but in ASA rules there is a set strike zone and too many umps just want to call it like mat ball!

 

[Sully]

I should know better than to argue with someone who asked opinions and already had his mind made up, but I'm dumb, so I'll do it anyway.

You don't think it's possible for a pitch that's 6 feet high to cross through the front knee if the batter was standing even with the plate and land behind the point of the plate? I do.

I've played ball on the East Coast, West Coast, and overseas and in all of the years I've played ball I can never remember a 6 foot or higher pitch landing behind the point of the plate being called a ball.

In fact, I'm guessing you are one of maybe a handful of people that would even think about calling a ball. I mean really, what do you want the pitcher to do? It doesn't get much more hittable than a legal pitch goes right down the middle of the plate and lands right behind the plate. Any batter that takes that pitch with 2 strikes should buy a keg of beer.

 

[Sully]

Fin 09 - I have no reason to lie, it was not me

MP 33 - I am known in the area as a long time ump who never complains about calls. Frequently umps will approach me after a game and that's exactly how this conversation started, he came to my dugout and asked me what I thought about the other teams guy being pissed about that strike call!

Dttruax - EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!

Spos 21 ram - You may want to actually read the rulebook definition of strike zone!!!!! It's really pretty simple I don't think a 6 foot high pitch that lands very close to the back of the plate was ever actually 20 inches high at any time over the plate. Yes it's a hitters game and I have no problem with that being a strike in mat ball because that is how a strike is defined in mat ball, but in ASA rules there is a set strike zone and too many umps just want to call it like mat ball!

Wait! You're an umpire that first of all yelled at another umpire that he was ****ty in front of other people, and to top it off, you yelled at an umpire for having a consistent strike zone? So he disagrees with you and that makes him a ****ty umpire? What ever happened to professional courtesy? Umpires take enough crap as it is without one umpire publicly questioning another umpire's ability.

You know why you can't argue balls and strikes? BECAUSE IT'S A JUDGMENT CALL. Not YOUR judgment, his. No two MLB umpires have exactly the same strike zone and they have tons of clinics, have to work their way up through the minors like players and get paid good money to umpire. All a player can ask is his strike zone is consistent. I can adjust to any umpire if he calls consistently.

Sometimes umpires can be too cute with their judgment. If you are trying to figure out whether an underhand pitched ball that goes right down broadway is a strike using physics charts and quantum physics, you might be overthinking this just a bit.

 

[waldo8403]

Sully - A really flat legal pitch I'm talking about is probably only 12 inches off the ground when it crosses the front of the plate. So I guess your either quite the accomplished hitter or a damn midget if "IT DOESN'T GET MUCH MORE HITTABLE THAN THAT"

Most of all YOU NEED TO LEASRN TO READ!!!
I never said I yelled at him and there was no one else that could hear our one-on-one conversation when he came and sat down next to me. I also wasn't arguing a judgement call, he got the shi**y reference because he was calling rules "HIS" way, not the way the rulebook describes them.

Is it really so hard for people to just think about a question and make a reasonable comment related to it without the other bull and assumptions. I'm more than willing to debate my interpretation of the official strike zone.

 

[NCASAUmp]

I repeat...

It's slow pitch softball. Swing the damn bat, T-Rex.

Seriously, what the hell do you want from us? This is the "Ask the Umpire" section, not the "Come ***** at the Umpire Because Blue Made Me Cry Last Night" section.

 

[waldo8403]

Ok NCASAUmp

Lets just forget everything that I originally posted and go from here then.

Can someone show me how a 6' high pitch that lands 1" behind the plate ever be in the "strike zone"