ASA "Tie goes to the runner!"

cliffsheets

New Member
Ever since T-ball, I've understood the tie-goes-to-the-runner rule. One game, we protested the call out at first as we all yelled "tie goes to the runner!" The umpire replied back, "Show me the rule!"

Is this rule just a tradition or is it an actual rule?

When I refered to the ASA handbook, the way it was worded could technically mean "tie goes to the runner". But it doesn't specifically say "tie goes to the runner".

Any insight on this?
 

beernbombs

Abby's dad
While it is technically possible for the runner and the ball to arrive at the same time, it just doesn't happen. The ball either beat the runner or it didn't.
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
Ever since T-ball, I've understood the tie-goes-to-the-runner rule. One game, we protested the call out at first as we all yelled "tie goes to the runner!" The umpire replied back, "Show me the rule!"

Is this rule just a tradition or is it an actual rule?

When I refered to the ASA handbook, the way it was worded could technically mean "tie goes to the runner". But it doesn't specifically say "tie goes to the runner".

Any insight on this?

While most umpires will tell you the tie goes to them, and many believe the comment is a myth, it is true.

Speaking ASA

Rule 8.2 The Batter-Runner is Out:
B. When after hitting a fair ball, the batter-runner is put out prior to reaching first base.

Rule 8.7 The Runner is Out:
C. When on a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base...

Both rules clearly state that the defense must put out the BR/R prior to him/her reaching first base. That means, if the fielder gains possession of the ball simultaneously with the BR/R touching the base, the defense failed to meet the requirements of either rule. Therefore, by rule, the tie does indeed go to the runner.
 

Fin09

Addicted to Softballfans
I umpired kickball for a season- the drunks who wrote that rulebook did include the "tie goes to the runner" wording in there. Nowhere will you find those words in any softball rulebook. There are no ties. One thing happens before the other, even if it's 0.00001 second or less apart. It's up to the umpire to determine which happened first.
 

Gulf Coast Blue

Addicted to Softballfans
I umpired kickball for a season- the drunks who wrote that rulebook did include the "tie goes to the runner" wording in there. Nowhere will you find those words in any softball rulebook. There are no ties. One thing happens before the other, even if it's 0.00001 second or less apart. It's up to the umpire to determine which happened first.

IM gave the inference.......but the tie goes to the Umpire........:cool:

Joel
 
While it is technically possible for the runner and the ball to arrive at the same time, it just doesn't happen. The ball either beat the runner or it didn't.

That's the thing. It's not "technically" possible. Time is infinitely divisible. Something happens before the other.
 

sjury

The Old Man
As the rule states... "prior" and "before"... so even while infinitely dividing time into milliseconds and nanoseconds, look at it this way...

3>3 - three is greater then three - is a false statement because they are the same. The statement didn't say 3 is greater than or equal to 3, so the tie doesn't go to the runner as the book reads, it's an out.
 

FatBoy28

SBF is a cruel Mistress
That's the thing. It's not "technically" possible. Time is infinitely divisible. Something happens before the other.
It is technically possible. Yes, time is ininitely divisible but that does not prevent two things from occuring at exactly the same moment in time. As our ability to measure those divisions of time increases, the likelihood of two things appearing to occur at the same moment decreases but that does not mean that they do not.

As always in softball, the limiting factor is the eyesight of the umpire.
 

bigsmooth13

Manager
In my ASA umpire handbook it clearly states that the runner must beat the ball to the bag. Therefore, a "tie" is an out. The runner did not beat the ball to the bag. Simple.
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
In my ASA umpire handbook it clearly states that the runner must beat the ball to the bag. Therefore, a "tie" is an out. The runner did not beat the ball to the bag. Simple.

Where in the hell are you reading that?? Which year are you looking at, and on what page/section?
 

CTBOH

Coach
tie...?

making the right call on BANG-BANG plays is not perfect science... but factors within the play contribute; did the runner hustle all the way down the line? did the SS boot it a little first? did the umpire SELL the call or was he timid? All of these things can and DO make a difference in teams bitching about close calls..... if two umpires had the exact same play, and called it the same way, "bad" umpires will hear more **** than "good" umpires......
 

bigsmooth13

Manager
Where in the hell are you reading that?? Which year are you looking at, and on what page/section?

Section 7. THE RUNNER IS OUT.

C. When, on a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, or
tags the runner before the runner reaches the base.

J. "A batter is out when, after a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base"

E. "...is out when he fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base..."

I could see its possible for interpretation but E is pretty clear.

The runner must make the base before the ball. In a "tie" he did not make the base before the ball.

I am going off of my ASA umpire handbook from 2004. It was the first one I physically came across.
 

NCASAUmp

Un-Retired
Section 7. THE RUNNER IS OUT.

C. When, on a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base.

J. "A batter is out when, after a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base"

E. "...is out when he fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base..."

I could see its possible for interpretation but E is pretty clear.

The runner must make the base before the ball. In a "tie" he did not make the base before the ball.

I am going off of my ASA umpire handbook from 2004. It was the first one I physically came across.

In all three cases you cited, the rules do not say that the runner has to get there before the defense makes the tag. Instead, they all say that the defense must tag the runner (or base) before the runner gets there.

If it's a tie, then they didn't tag them before they got there, now did they?

Not that I believe in ties, but I'm just sayin' that the book doesn't say what you claim it says.
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
I am going off of my ASA umpire handbook from 2004. It was the first one I physically came across.


You need to find a rule book from at least this decade.

The wording of the rule you quoted was changed some time ago (I'm thinking maybe 2008) so that it now agrees with the case of a batter-runner being put out at first base. The defense has to tag the base BEFORE the runner touches it.
 

bigsmooth13

Manager
Interpretation I guess. If you do not beat the ball, in my interpretation of the rules, you are out. You tie, therefore you did not beat the ball to the bag. I will find a newer rules book in a few. I just moved in the winter and have not unpacked things that were not important to the time. Yes, I procrastinate.
 

tmpnick16

Addicted to Softballfans
In all three cases you cited, the rules do not say that the runner has to get there before the defense makes the tag. Instead, they all say that the defense must tag the runner (or base) before the runner gets there.

If it's a tie, then they didn't tag them before they got there, now did they?

Not that I believe in ties, but I'm just sayin' that the book doesn't say what you claim it says.



No, E states that the runner must get there BEFORE the fielder/ball.
But as it's been stated in this post, that's no longer how it's written.
 

BretMan

Addicted to Softballfans
Interpretation I guess. If you do not beat the ball, in my interpretation of the rules, you are out. You tie, therefore you did not beat the ball to the bag. I will find a newer rules book in a few. I just moved in the winter and have not unpacked things that were not important to the time. Yes, I procrastinate.

That's okay...you're an Ohio guy so you get some slack!

I've made a few trips to Loveland over the years to visit The Castle.
 

TonyB

Addicted to Softballfans
As the rule states... "prior" and "before"... so even while infinitely dividing time into milliseconds and nanoseconds, look at it this way...

3>3 - three is greater then three - is a false statement because they are the same. The statement didn't say 3 is greater than or equal to 3, so the tie doesn't go to the runner as the book reads, it's an out.
Right, but you've got it backwards.
Interpretation I guess. If you do not beat the ball, in my interpretation of the rules, you are out. You tie, therefore you did not beat the ball to the bag.
It isn't interpretation if the rules say the runner is out when the ball/fielder reaches the base before the runner. Ball reaches base before the runner: out.
Ball reaches base after the runner: safe.
Ball reaches base at the same time as the runner: safe.
That's the thing. It's not "technically" possible. Time is infinitely divisible. Something happens before the other.
no such thing as a tie- something got there first
No, it's just incredibly unlikely (the probability of the event is 0) that the ball and the runner will arrive at exactly the same time.
 

Gamble

Addicted to Softballfans
No, it's just incredibly unlikely (the probability of the event is 0) that the ball and the runner will arrive at exactly the same time.

Until you get to the Planck scale, simultaneous actions don't happen. I don't call games at the Planck scale; something got there first.
 

TonyB

Addicted to Softballfans
Actually, you're more likely to have a tie within a given range of time the larger that range is (ie, more likely to tie within 1 second than within .5 seconds). The less precise you are, the more likely you are to tie.
 

irishmafia

Addicted to Softballfans
Interpretation I guess. If you do not beat the ball, in my interpretation of the rules, you are out. You tie, therefore you did not beat the ball to the bag. I will find a newer rules book in a few. I just moved in the winter and have not unpacked things that were not important to the time. Yes, I procrastinate.

No, it is not an interpretation. It is clear in the book. You would lose this protest it you gave that as a reason for making a call.
 

Gamble

Addicted to Softballfans
Actually, you're more likely to have a tie within a given range of time the larger that range is (ie, more likely to tie within 1 second than within .5 seconds). The less precise you are, the more likely you are to tie.

Accuracy*, not precision. A less accurate measurement will always allow for greater precision, because the results are significantly more repeatable within a very low margin of error.

Semantics aside, that's only if you're talking about recording events to a significant figure. Even if you record events only to a significant figure where they're the same, before rounding it can be quite obvious that the two events did not happen at the same time and that the "simultaneous" nature recorded is, in effect, only the result of a rounding error. Truly simultaneous events don't occur until the Planck scale, where time becomes quantized and there's no further "division" of time possible; at that level, things really happen "at the same time", because there's no "in between" for them to happen in, and even if there were there's no possibility of distinguishing between them.

For example I can't accurately time off a tenth of a second myself, but I can damn sure tell you things that happened a tenth of a second apart didn't occur at the same time, even if the accuracy of my timing doesn't allow for record keeping that reflects that. I couldn't count off "one-one-thousand, two-one-thousand, etc." to time the Olympic 100m out to 0.001 second, but I could still tell you who crossed the line first, even if I had to record five runners with a time of 10 seconds.

And now that we're done with our completely useless science lesson for the day...


If it's very close, but I feel the ball really did get there first I'm going to ring up the out. If I think you beat it, then you're safe. No matter what I call, fifty percent of the players are going to be pissed.
 

joncon

Addicted to Softballfans
Therefore, by rule, the tie does indeed go to the runner.


Yay Blue!!

For those who insist that two things can't somehow happen at the same time, :rolleyes:

Real life time is limited to say 1/10 of a second and there are a LOT of things going on, right now, in this 1/10 of a second.

There are just as many things happening in the 1/100th of a second following. Time is limited and defined. Everything can't happen at a different time.
 
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